Okay, the eternal question, with a twist:

[Houngan]

Not IZH vs. UberGun, but how about IZH vs. Daisy 747 for introductory shooting? How much better is the IZH than the Daisy, if at all? What about Tech Force's SS2, a FWB65 clone that reportedly performs equally well, if not better, for 280$?

H.

[Guest]

> How much better is the IZH than the Daisy 747, if at all?

About the same as a Porche compared to a wheel barrow.

> What about Tech Force's SS2...?

Better than the Daisy by a mile, but old technology compared to the IZH.

[Houngan]

> How much better is the IZH than the Daisy 747, if at all?

About the same as a Porche compared to a wheel barrow.

> What about Tech Force's SS2...?

Better than the Daisy by a mile, but old technology compared to the IZH.

See, I don't buy it.

I appreciate that there is a difference in ergonomics and other factors, but the above quote makes it sound like it's impossible to shoot well with a 747, and other posts make it sound like the IZH is impossible to shoot marginally with. I've got too much experience in rimfire to think that it is impossible to find a decent gun for under 300$.

Another post mentions someone shooting a 717, which is a 747 with less of a barrel:

"Heck, I shot my first two seasons with a Daisy 717 and took first expert at a match with it over shooters with Steyrs and the like."

First expert? That doesn't sound like a wheelbarrow. I'm put in mind of Ed McGivern, who could shoot one hole groups all day with factory Smiths, even after they had 200k rounds put through them.

Seriously, how bad is the seating, pressure consistency, and barrel on a 747? I know the trigger isn't going to be comparable to the 1k$ guns, but triggers can be learned. I know the grip isn't a wraparound, but then such grips are a fairly recent invention in the entire sport. What I want to know, is what guns will reflect skill up to 550/600 or so? Will they last while someone learns to shoot, so that there isn't a point where the pistol is preventing the shooter from improving. Doesn't anybody ransom-rest these things and publish group sizes?

The very fact that the world records are now 15 years old should suggest that it is indeed possible to shoot well with less-than-perfect equipment.

H.

[Charles]

What about Tech Force's SS2, a FWB65 clone that reportedly performs equally well, if not better, for 280$?

H.

I will take a used original FWB 65 for $300 over a SS2 since I can shoot it forever and sell it for $300 when I am done. You can't do that with a SS2, which tend to have low resale value from what I have seen. I have also seen reports by shooters who loved their new SS2 - after they went thru them internally and cleaned them up :)

Charles

[sparky]

In high school, I shot with a Daisy, a Beeman P2, and a Feinwerkbau 65. Mostly the Feinwerkbau 65. The Daisy had a crap trigger and felt awkward. It felt too big and bulky and though I can't point to specifics, I could never shoot well with it. The Beeman P2 also had a crap trigger, and it was hard to pump...pumping it usually had me pushing down on the rear sight, which wasn't a good thing. The Feinwerkbau was head and shoulders above all of them. Great trigger pull, I was able to adjust the distance and blade of the trigger to my liking, the grips were great, and the sights were clear. My only complaint is that it feels relatively heavy, and I still don't like how high the sights were above the grip.
After I graduated from high school, I had an opportunity to shoot an Izh-46M. I know I'm in the minority, but I liked it even better than the Feinwerkbau. The trigger felt just as good, the sights looked just as good and lower than on the Feinwerkbau, and it felt easier for me to pump without having to shift my grip. The grip wasn't as good as the one on the Feinwerkbau, but I supposed a custom grip would solve that.

[Guest]

> See, I don't buy it.
> "Heck, I shot my first two seasons with a Daisy 717 and took first
> expert at a match with it over shooters with Steyrs and the like."

Well, Ace, it looks like you made a decision before you asked. Go for it.

[Jimmy B]

Unlike the Daisy, McGivern's S&W k22 wasn't a cheap potmetal casting. That comparison is absurd.
But if you want one hole groups after 200k rounds, do what McGivern did and buy the best tool available, namely a top notch gun like Steyr, Pardini, Feinwerkbau, or Morini.
After 200k rounds, you'll have spend about 2-3 times the cost of any of these guns just in pellets.
PS: See Gil Hebard's Pistol Shjooters Treasury to find out more about the "merits" of cheap guns. He did a study using 3 of the top NRA bullseye shooters (290's/300 NM course) and cheap so-called target guns. Their scores dropped to the 230s-240s. Imagine a novice trying to learn with such a poor instrument.
Lotsa luck![/quote]

[Houngan]

> See, I don't buy it.
> "Heck, I shot my first two seasons with a Daisy 717 and took first
> expert at a match with it over shooters with Steyrs and the like."

Well, Ace, it looks like you made a decision before you asked. Go for it.

Well, Ace, it looks like you didn't read what I wrote. That quote is from someone else.

H.

[Houngan]

Unlike the Daisy, McGivern's S&W k22 wasn't a cheap potmetal casting. That comparison is absurd.
But if you want one hole groups after 200k rounds, do what McGivern did and buy the best tool available, namely a top notch gun like Steyr, Pardini, Feinwerkbau, or Morini.
After 200k rounds, you'll have spend about 2-3 times the cost of any of these guns just in pellets.
PS: See Gil Hebard's Pistol Shjooters Treasury to find out more about the "merits" of cheap guns. He did a study using 3 of the top NRA bullseye shooters (290's/300 NM course) and cheap so-called target guns. Their scores dropped to the 230s-240s. Imagine a novice trying to learn with such a poor instrument.
Lotsa luck!

[/quote]

Jesus, people get snippy over this stuff! First, the 200k rounds was what had been run through the guns, not by McGivern, but as an indicator of what could be done with a pistol that anybody else would have labeled as "worn out."

Second, the information about the NRA shooters is exactly what I'm asking for. No need to be a little bitch about it with the "lotsa luck." Interesting that there are dozens of threads about "how do we get more people into the sport" and then a question about entry-level equipment generates this much hostility.

H.

[Fred Mannis]

Take a look at the Postal Match section on the Target Shooting Canada website (http://www.targetshooting.ca/). The latest scores (Dec) will give you a pretty good idea of what can be done with such 'entry' level pistols as the IZH46 and the Brno Tau 7 compared to Steyr, Morini, Hammerli, etc.

Also, take a look at the 20/20 postal match results for Jan (http://www.airguninfo.com/match010805.htm), again you will get a good comparison of how well people can do with 'entry' level vs high end air pistols.

I started AP with a Beeman P2, then traded that for an IZH46 because of its better trigger and easier cocking. Not familiar with any of the Daisy or Chinese products

Fred

[dhurt]

A few years ago, I was shooting the state games with my Pardini K60 CO2 pistol when it suddenly (froze up) because of the 90 degree plus temperature. I have since learned to deal with this problem, but at the time I borrowed an IZH to finish the match. I was very pleasantly surprised how well I shot the IZH and believe it to be much easier to shoot than my Daisy. A used air pistol, such as the K60, might be an option. They are in the 300-400 dollar range, have great triggers and offer much to any shooter. I don't think you need the newest rage to compete well, however, personal experience leads me to suggest getting a good piece of equipment that needs little tinkering. Best regards.

[guest]

Houngan,

Why do people, beginer or otherwise, submit questions when they already know whay answer they want to hear?
Why not just submit the question: "Would people please reaffirm my wish to buy Brand X. No others need respond."

[Houngan]

Houngan,

Why do people, beginer or otherwise, submit questions when they already know whay answer they want to hear?
Why not just submit the question: "Would people please reaffirm my wish to buy Brand X. No others need respond."

I know you think you're being terribly clever, so why don't you tell me what I bought?

H.

[kleefurd]

*waves white flag*

whispers "cease fire! cease fire!"

There seems to be quite a bit of misread posts leading to misunderstood replies... "cease fire!"...

- - - back to topic - - -

Houngan, like you, I was looking for my first air pistol when I started "downgrading" from real bullets to AP (I shot assault/sniper rifles for 15 years in the army in the past)... and I had no idea what to buy, and why... so I asked many questions to the point where I had private messages telling me to "SEARCH THE BOARDS!"...

What I subsequently did was to move around various ranges, talking to armory people to get them to let me try various club pistols. And I realise that the better quality (and more costly) pistols does help in shooting by quite a bit. This is what I personally feel (veterans correct me if I am wrong here)...

a. Better grips help loads in more steady hold.
b. Well balanced pistol in your hands extends your STAMINA by a lot. (for me, I can manage about 120 shots in one go on a muzzle heavy pistol (no brand naming here) but double that on a really good model)...
c. In my case I have decided on a used Steyr LP10 (or maybe a new sexy Silver!!, still saving for it) because shooting a "smooth as silk" pistol helps build confidence which a novice needs!
d. Better build, less problems, more shooting time, less trips to the gunsmith.

If you are working towards competitive shooting, why not skip all the grieve and start training with the "standard equipment" (these days, its the fancier new pistols with compensators and the works) and this helps novices like me to minimise excuses like "that was a bad shot because my pistol sucks"... and not to mention you are fine tuning the right motor functions all the way...

At least I know the equipment works, and its the person I look into the mirror that needs work on... that helps loads... instead of wondering was it me, or was it the equipment that failed me...

Hope this helps... at least that is what my research has taken me so far... there is a long long way ahead though... looking forward to learning more...

[GeorgeS]

Dear Friend,

I made myself the same question about what to buy..... i have the oportunity to try a Daisy 717 and it was very nice, my budget allows me to buy a IZH-46M and i do it. I am very happy with it and offcourse its an excelent airgun for 10M shooting. But I will tell you that if you are beginning i mean shooting around 300/600 buy the 747. With it you will learn everything about 10M shooting (is just good for 10M because it is low power) and almost achieve 490/600. When you get to this score, offcourse you can achive more, change it. In that time you will also know if you want to continue shooting and maybe you can buy something better like a Tau, Aeron, Feinwerkbau, etc...

The 747 its very easy to pump and load and has a good accuracy. A little bit front heavy as the IZH-46M. It has small grips but you can change them later if you want.

If you have the money buy the IZH if not dont be confused and buy the 747 and you will be very very happy with it.

[Luftrick]

Well, to weigh in on this issue (one of my favorite debates actually): "Heck, I shot my first two seasons with a Daisy 717 and took first expert at a match with it over shooters with Steyrs and the like."

That quote regarding the 717 is mine. The 537 score that I shot at the match that day was not the pistol's limitations, it was my nerves. 90, 91, 91, 90, 91, 84! I was on the last relay and the highest score on the board before I went on the line with two other shooters (both sharpshooters) was a 540. I knew I was beating it going into my final 10 shot string, but I psyched myself out and missed taking the overall by only three points. I have no doubt that a 717, in the right hands, could take matches at any level. It just is a $75 pistol, so it is limited in the quality of materials and construction that can be used and still make it profitable to manufacture.

I like the Baikal, don't get me wrong. I wrote a favorable review of it way back for my Air Pistol Home Page: http://www.pilkguns.com/aphp/baikal.htm but calling it a Porsche and the 717 a wheel barrow? Nah. The 717 is an excellent, inexpensive way to get into air pistol competition for those who don't want to make a large investment before seeing some return. If you have a budget nearly four times greater for your purchase, than the Baikal gives you better sights, better trigger and better grips. When and if you feel the need to quadruple your investment again, any one of the scores of $1200+ Olympic-class pistols will give you the best of everything ... but in reality, you have to be an Olympic-class shooter to NEED these guns. The rest of us shmoes may WANT one, but can get by with what we brung.

[Guest]

> ...but calling it a Porsche and the 717 a wheel barrow?
> Nah. The 717 is an excellent, inexpensive way to get
> into air pistol competition

You can convince yourself that hamburger is steak if you wish, but build quality does not lie. The Daisy 717/747/777 can shoot respectable scores with enough work, but they are still unwieldy cheapo junk.

[LeeU]

Hi, H
Buy the IZH 46M?. Enjoy the pistol, don't listen to these wannabe's, they relly don't know a damm thing about the IZH pistol. Enjoy Lee

[Bill177]

No need in describing the Izzy - everyone knows it is a lot of gun for the price. When I progressed to the 540 level I sold it and bought a K60 - Co2. After about a year I found I had a few extra dollars and "lusted" (not needed) for a better gun.

I purchased a K2 Co2 and have been very happy with it. Did it make my scores go up? Of course not. I am the gun's limitation.

What I specifically like about the K2 is the lack of nose heaviness - which both the Izzy and the K60 had. The grip was a nicer fit on the K60 - but, soon I will introduce my K2's grips to my Dremel Tool.

I am very pleased with my progression among air pistols. However, as the recent 20/20 Postal Matches show: IT IS THE SHOOTER big part and the gun small part.

[Luftrick]

"You can convince yourself that hamburger is steak if you wish, but build quality does not lie. The Daisy 717/747/777 can shoot respectable scores with enough work, but they are still unwieldy cheapo junk."

And you can look at a menu all day long that is out of your price range and go hungry, or step up and order a hamburger you can afford. At least that way, you are chewing cow and not shooting bull.