TargetTalk

One of the guys in the club feels that the morini grip on the Steyr LP10 is better fitting than the one on the Morini CM162ie.

He is speculating that the electronics in the CM162ie force a different grip shape and wonder if the grip on the CM162M mechanical might not be identical to the one on the steyr.

there are no mechanical morini's in our club to compare

can anyone address this?

Poole
http://arizona.rifleshooting.com/

I found this as well. However, I was comparing the fixed palm shelf (my preferred on the Steyr) –v- the factory adjustable.
As I have custom grips for right hand/left eye, and only shoot air indoors, the hand swell is minimal.

I noted that the Steyr factory grips are no longer made my Morini. A bit disappointing.

My 162EI was customised and has very similar profile to the old Steyr grip with fixed palm shelf albeit offset to right hand/left eye.

The older 162 manual unit grips I have seen is just like the Steyr fixed palm shelf grip but both have excellent profiles. The "newer" one may not be the latest grip so might not be an accurate comparison.

Hi, Bill

The main differences between the grips of the Morini 162 electric/mechanical versions are as follows:

1. Grip of el. model has less adjustability, because of the el. "stuff" inside the grip.

2. The grip of the el. model is thicker in the palm area.

3. Hand is postioned about 1/3 of an inch lower on the grip of the el. model.

All of these 3 inputs makes the grip of the el. model less favourable for most hands.

And if you start carving on the grip, you will be surprized of the limited thickness of the wood in the palm area. More shooters have unintentionally carved into the circuit plate, rendering the trigger (and gun, of course), useless. The repair is not cheap.

Avoid the trouble. Buy the mechanical version. I had the el. version. Sold it, bought a mechanical one. And I feel much more comfortable.

funmore = having (more) fun, shooting my Morini (mechanical version).

On The Other Hand . . . [Enable Sense of Humor Please]

"Most Hands" (cite of ergonomic studies please?) may or may not like a small, high, changing hand position.

1. Adjustability: O.K., fine, I think by the third or fourth time I shoot any gun I can put LocTite Of Death on the adjustment screws. And since I always throw some putty into the mix . . . who cares? Am I still "fine tuning" [sic] my "adjustability" three matches later?

2. Thickness: Now some of you may prefer to wrap your hand around a pencil or broomstick, however, I know "A Lot" (based on A Purely Scientific Study) of folks who ADD stuff to palm swell area as opposed to firing up the Dremel tool. Me included. Thicker in the palm area? Bonus!

3. 0.33" lower hand position: Hadn't noticed. O.K., when they put the barrel under the trigger this becomes an issue. Hmmm . . . maybe I can grind off 0.33" from the top of the sights . . .

Not to be *too* sarcastic, but the statement "less favourable for most hands" based on a sample size of 1 tends to grate on my finely tuned professionally academic sensibilities . . .

(Wonder what the sales of electronic vs. mechanical setups has to say about this. Francesco? Is it true that EU shooters have Girly Hands?)

Hey, I'm delighted that *You're* happy with the mechanical FloppenTrigger. Just not sure the Obvious Superiority you see applies to exactly *everyone* though . . .

Steve "Dyed In The Wool Electronic Trigger But O.K. If You Want To Handicap Yourself With A Mechanical One Guy" Swartz

oh electronic boy you so funny

Hi, Steve Swartz.

Mostly, Steve, I enjoy reading your posts. But you prefer to contradict everybody always?

To start from the bottom: There is no handicap by using a mechanical Morini AP. Why should some Olympic shooters whant to compete with a handicap? Do you think they do not know better?

Judged from just 1 hand size? No, many hands, and complaints about the grip of the electronic Morini from many shooters.

Well, Steve, I have been involved, and still train on a dayly basis, with the National Team Members of my country. And I have done so for decades. I have won some national championships. And I do have a lot of experience, especialy with APs. I have used and tested about every match AP/ CO2-P made since the 70s.
Can you better that, Steve?

I am judging the Morini electronic from a platform of experience. There is nothing magic about the electronic Morini trigger. I will put it this way: some like it, some don´t. Some shoot their best scores with the electronic, some with the mechanical trigger. What makes you a good shot is the "quality" of what happens to be "contained" between your ears. I think.

Hi funMor:

First, you are absolutely correct that the fundamentals of world class performance are much more dependent on the "thought" part of your shot process (perfecting alignment, accepting settle, subconscious perfect trigger) than the equipment- or even the mechanical aspects of technique in most cases. The best shooters will outperform the wannabes with substandard equipment- let alone match grade stuff. That being said, the point is to adopt equipment and technique that allow you to shoot up to your potential. For world class shooters, that can be very small improvements in performance indeed.

Hey, I don't contradict *everybody* necessarily. Like everyone else in the world- just those who disagree with me!

(insert harmless smiley icon here)

Anyhow, I'm glad you are so successful; however, I have known too many successful people who rely on "expert power" instead of "fact power" to trust *everything* somebody says just because it seems to "work" for them. Grab a latte and consider please the current example:

1. There are many reasons why Shooter X "swears by" Equipment Y. One reason (not necessarily the main reason even) might be because that's the best equipment for them. Other reasons may include all the training time invested in that equipment (too much hassle to change horses), see no reason to spend extra $$$ when current equipment "works just great," sponsorship, "it's what my favorite coach recommended," "It's what the best shooter was using when I was starting out," etc. etc. etc. National team members are people too, ya know. With all the people emotional baggage, superstition, etc. as the rest of us.

2. Advantages/disadvantages of mechanical vs. electronic triggers get thoroughly thrashed out here every so often; no need to repeat benefits of constant force profile again here.

3. Yes, match quality, reliable electronic trigger systems are fairly new- and yes, they feel *very* different. Unless a shooter is willing to invest a lot of training time and effort, and assume great risk of being at a disadvantage for some amount of time, they will not ever adopt an electronic trigger. And besides, all the "experts" will be "swearing by" their mechanical triggers and "swearing at" the "weird guy wasting his time" on the electronic. In this country, the top rifle shooters ended uop being very late too adopt the M-16 rifle . . . there are more examples than that of the "top shooters" being somewhat late to the game on new equipment, even when the new equipment represented obvious advantages (some old-timers still win medals with bolt-action rifles!). So we are not surprised when a more subtle advantage (like a constant force profile trigger) is rejected out of hand by "the experts." Actually, we expect it. The phenomenon of "Groupthink" has actually been found to be a very strong force among a culture of similarly trained and experienced experts. More so than among the rabble, to be certain!

Yep, there are a lot of reasons why adopting an electronic trigger might not be right for you- most of them have more to do with human nature than objective facts though.

There are advantages to living in a culture that questions "authority" as a matter of cherished principle. Keeps everyone on their toes. The proletariat as well as the bourgeoisie.

Yes, there is value in contradicting *everything.* But I'm too agreeable for that, so I just contradict those with whom I disagree!

Steve Swartz

Oh man...
I think I'm starting to get used to him...
:-(
JLK

Hello, Steve.

You have authored an impressive number of posts in this coloumn. By the hundreds? You have clear points of view on many topics, that is ok.

If you are willing to clear up the following matters for us, your posts could have even more impact!

Let me ask:

What exactly are your merits in the "olympic pistol" diciplines, Steve? (Olympic Pistol happens to be the title of this coloumn, by the way).

I am not postulating that you are a bragging "bigmouth", no way! But what are your experiences from competitive shooting? And for how many years?
Are you, or have you been, a member of the US shooting team? Or tecnical support staff of this team? Or have you been a salesman of competition firearms?

The big question is: are your opinions based on real knowledge, or just assumptions?

Can you clear up this matter for us, Steve? As I said, your posts could then gain real momentum.

(Put in a smiley here too).

I plan to go to one (or two) of the World cups this the next year, as an observer. We are looking forward to se you there.

You have a mission, you know, Steve. To tell those poor souls shooting their mechanical triggers at the World Cups, that they would do much better with electronic triggers. They will beyond doubt be delightet to get this new knowledge.

Regards,

"Smiley".

Anonymous Guest


I. Infotainment

I hope this thread and others provide a valuable mix of both entertainment and information. Life is too short to drink lousy beer; the unexamined life is not worth living. Learning Can Be Fun!

B. Facts vs. Opinion

When you catch me in a factual error, feel free to point it out and I'll apologize. It does happen, ya know. I'm used to it.

When you disagree with an opinion of mine, feel free to offer your own in whatever form of rebuttal it may take.

I don't expect you or anyone else to accept anything I say. I expect you to challenge them. That's the only way to discover the underlying truths; by questioning and rhetorical argumentation. It's been very helpful for me, I apologize if it has not been equally valuable to you or others.


3. Expert Power

If I was a fool and/or a liar, would it matter if I was a fool and a liar with a Gold Medal? (Contrapositive: if I have a Gold Medal, does it mean I am neither a fool nor a liar?). Since I don't have a Gold Medal, that means that my opinions must receive *different* scrutiny (more?) than those who *do* have a Gold Medal. Different; agreed. Different how? Up to you. I can't answer that for you.

I've never bought the "I Hang With JLo" logic.

If you need to measure my opinions by my accomplishments, fine. I'm actually a 10 year old kid who likes to sneak some bandwidth on the library computer to "Troll" up some trouble for the adults in the group. Treat my opinions accordingly. I will be delighted to receive any crushing blows to my logic- see para I. above.

And to be fair, yes, I also weight opinions of those with many accomplishments accordingly. But "Accordingly" means different things to different people. I have gotten some really great ideas and insights from non-experts, and have heard some real howlers from experts. In this field of human endeavor and others in which I have some skills and/or knowledge. But then again, maybe I'm easily impressed by novices and unduly critical of experts.

Your Mileage May Vary


IV. Self Deprecating Humor Section

Guess I'll have to return that "Miss Congeniality" crown now.


Five. Kudos to the Host/Shameless Plug Section

Scotty and All At PilkGuns: Thanks Again for providing this electronic Town Square. It's a vital service to the community, and I appreciate it.

Steve

Steve, Thanks for the entertainment. I love it.

Back to the subject sort of...

Steve,

Based on your stance you think electronic triggers are better than mechinacal. (There are a few other followers who think this also) Add to this rifle shooters are very picky about there equipment and need to get the most out of there equipment to get every possable point.

There are not many, if any electronic triggers in Rifle.

I wonder if the rifle manufactures beleive there is no benifit to using an electronic tirgger. Could it be Pistol is so advanced and we are way ahead. Pistol did start using compressed air first and rifle has caught on.

Chris:

Thanks- sorry for the digression. And you bring up an excellent point- but you have to consider that electronic vs. mechanical triggers are "different" (fact) and may or may not be "superior" (opinion) for the application. Consider:

For pistol- trigger control is not only important, it is very, very, very important. The weapon is unsupported, unstable, and rolling around violently on a sea of electron-stimulated protein. Stance and grip (position) are only important INSOFAR as they support trigger control. On the other hand, in rifle- wouldn't you say the weapon is supported in a sense by your position? That finding the perfect combination of Bone-Bone-Jacket (oops; well, within legal limits!) balancing stresses is actually the number one priority? Hmmmm . . . so is trigger control as important in rifle as position? Perhaps less important than it is in Pistol?

<<Agree that alignment is equally a very high (but again, different) priority in both; hold constant between the two disciplines>>

O.K.- the DIFFERENCE (not "superiority") between MOST mechanical and electronic triggers today is the constant force profile (over distance) with electronic; VS. the frighteningly steep (opinion; ok, couldn't resist) sudden, sharp and violent (still couldn't resist) drop off in the pressure curve immediately after you drag two tortured bits of metal scraping violently against each other (still opinion I suppose) with a mechanical trigger.

Disclaimer: Yes, I'm Biased In Favor Of Electronic Triggers! Just wanted to make sure you were aware of my opinion/preference.

Back to the knitting, so to speak.

Does any of this matter to the rifleman, who is securely duct-taped into position with 6,000 pounds of nylon, buckles, and cartilage?

I Think Not.

At least nowhere near as much as it matters to the erstwhile Pistolero; suspending his Precision Paper Pucnching Equipment at the end of a fragile and sensitive train of anxiety, worries, cares, muscle, bone and sinew.

The presence or absence of a 500 gram or so imbalance in the force vector at the grip is somewhat inconsequentlial to the rifleman, but could be a real bummer to the pistol shooter.

Heck, most riflemen will even accept the insults and vagaries of a single stage (Gasp!) trigger.

But mess with their sling . . .

Steve Swartz

And now we return you to your regular programming.

P.S. yes, you *could* modify the standard mechanical trigger desing to reduce (never eliminate) the force curve drop off. However- with a mechanical sear, you will NEVER eliminate creep. Creep for the electronic trigger is measured in angstroms (that's a really small distance). Creep for the BEST mechanical trigger is measured in thousandths of an inch. That's huge; relatively speaking. Neither of those matter much to your typical rifleman. Both are perfectly acceptable. Electronic triggers just aren't needed for rifle.

Steve,

You almost make it sound like the trigger during rifle shooting does not come into play. I know for a fact that trigger control and jerking the trigger can make the difference in a 10 or a 9 in all three positions. You have to remember the target is smaller.

Hello, again, Steve.

It´s ok, keep on posting. But allow me to challenge you in the future, whenever I find your points of view a little "accentuated", will you?

I always read your posts with interest Steve. Multiple posters like you are keeping this column up and running.


No bad feelings, Steve.

Regards,

"Smiley".

funMore:

Thanks for the gracious words; it is not my intent to cause offense. In my (large and boisterous) family growing up, "Argument" and "Offense" were always separable!

Yes Chris I agree trigger control is crucial in all three positions; especially off-hand (standing). However, what I "meant to say" is that as a source of error in the axial alignment of the boreline with the target during shot release, for the rifleman *other* factors provide significant error (yeah, gotta hate those wobbly palmrests!) that may be- how should I put this- more of a factor for the rifleman than the pistolero when compared to a slight offset that is the natural consequence of using the mechanical trigger.

I am assuming a highly skilled shooter in both cases- I agree, if you consider a tyro slapping away at the trigger then my opinion on the matter (assuming a highly skilled shooter) does not really apply.

An unskilled shooter has much greater issues than whether or not a 45 millisecond 37 degree 500 gram force imbalance in the grip is there or not.

This of course has brought us tangentially around to the other threads about whether or not it is worthwhile to start a new shooter out with match grade equipment in the first place . . .

Think Happy Thoughts!
Steve Swartz

Steve Swartz wrote:Anonymous Guest
If I was a fool and/or a liar, would it matter if I was a fool and a liar with a Gold Medal? (Contrapositive: if I have a Gold Medal, does it mean I am neither a fool nor a liar?). Since I don't have a Gold Medal, that means that my opinions must receive *different* scrutiny (more?) than those who *do* have a Gold Medal. Different; agreed. Different how? Up to you. I can't answer that for you.

And to be fair, yes, I also weight opinions of those with many accomplishments accordingly. But "Accordingly" means different things to different people. I have gotten some really great ideas and insights from non-experts, and have heard some real howlers from experts. In this field of human endeavor and others in which I have some skills and/or knowledge. But then again, maybe I'm easily impressed by novices and unduly critical of experts.
Steve

Steve,
You never did answer anonymous' question, so let me rephrase it. I am not interested in your awards and accomplishments, but I am interested in your experiences with the Morini electronic trigger that have led to your praise of it. Specifically -
1. What kind of mechanical trigger were you shooting before you switched?
2. What problems did you encounter when you switched?
3. How long did it take till your shooting was back to where it was before the switch?
4. How much of an improvement was there as a result of the switch?

As a new comer to AP, I don't face all the barriers to transition that you describe, but the cost of retraining vs the reward is of interest.

I enjoy your posts and the ensuing vigorous debate.

Fred

Fred:

Experience 1996-2000 with M1911 single stage match pistols and Hammerli 208s. Introduced to air by winning a "carnival contest" with an FWB65 under, shall we say, interesting circumstances (funny story, OBTW). 1999-2001 straddled NRA Bullseye and NRA/USAS ISSF air and free matches. 2001 pretty much dedicated to USAS ISSF matches.

Trained with Walthers and Hammerlis for about a year (1999-2000ish), then bought the Morini and have been shooting it ever since. During the learning curve period, went from 540s (Walther/Hammerli) to 560 (Morini) in about 6 months and four matches. Yes, the feel was different. But for someone used to perfecting trigger control on a 3 lb trigger- not an issue.

The biggest problem was learning how to accept that with an electronic trigger, trigger control really wasn't a source of error any more. It was a mental thing and a switch in training emphasis mainly. My mental focus during shot release had to change from reserving a ton of bandwidth to trigger control then alignment into almost 100% alignment- as long as I wasn't doing something stupid, perfect trigger control was pretty much automatic.

I didn't believe it either until I bought a Rika and was able to spend some quality time with Noptel. I had the Hammerli (mechanical) and Morini (electric) at hte same time for about 4 months and did a 1,000 round "taste test" during that time period. This was a full factorial, repeated measures design which protected against multiple sources of variability (yeah, that's what I do in the "the world") and I'm pretty confident in my results. Too bad the experiment isn't publishable in a peer reviewed journal.

Happiness is touching dots from yellow to red to green . . . with virtually identical wobble areas (statistically insignificant differences), a wobble area that would normally yield a 9.3 with a mechanical trigger yielded a 9.8 with the electronic. Off course, once I stuck with the electronic after the taste test and learned how to use it, that bumped up a bit.

I shoot 9.8 averages with only 80% 9 ring or better; 20% ten ring or better. if my hold sneaks into 90%/30%, the shot average beats 10.0. Never would have happened with a mechanical- I would need a much better hold to put up those numbers with a mechanical

The electronic system might not be for everyone- but I am certainly shooting "Better Than My Potential" with one. Have been now for four years or so.

But no- I'm still a tyro. If I had been shooting mechanical triggers since I was 13 years old, who knows? I only started shooting competitively (or at all, really) for 7 years or so. And I "wasted" those first 3-4 years in Bullseye.

Steve Swartz

In my humble opinion, index-finger movement vector brings some unbalance in sight alignment process for example. Not creep, not mechanics or electronics.


"When we hold our pistols, our hands hold our grips in following way (approximately, of course):
Thumb presses down. Middle finger and fourth finger press somewhere in direction to the centre of the grip. Little finger, almost, doesn't take part in holding. Thus, centre of our fingers' efforts situated somewhere in the centre of the grip: "primary zone of holding - PZH".
If grip hasn't appropriate angle, if trigger shoe hasn't appropriate position: index-finger movement vector will be directed beside the PZH... and every index-finger movement will cause pistol's vibrations. Our goal to make that vector be so near to PZH as possible..."


This part of article was translated by me for You:
Source: "Sport-shooting: Experience and Methodology" (1988)
Author: Razoryenov W. A. ("KhR" and AW-93 prototype assistant & designer)

Fine shots,
ruig

Ruig:

True

Mechanical vs. electronic trigger does not cause force vector misalignment (of course)

However

Force vector misalignment has very different effects dynamically, depending on 1) force involved (free pistol vs. service pistol) AND 2) what happens to that misaligned force while the hammer is falling and the shot is traveling down the barrel.

In most mechanical systems, the *opposite* of that misaligned force vector is instantaneously dominant (the misaligned force itself drops to "near zero"). In an electronic system with a constant force profile of trigger pressure over distance, the misaligned force vector continues to be dampened by the grip and alignment through the shot release.

The misaligned force vector (representing one aspect of what is commonly called "trigger control") is therefore *somewhat* less critical than with a mechanical trigger system.

Again, depending on

- magnitude of misalignment (crappy trigger control is still crappy with electronic)
- magnitude of force (pounds vs. grams makes a big difference)
- time between sear release and shot away (quicker is better)
- location of overtravel stop for mechanical system

I think that's a complete summary of the thread . . .

Steve Swartz

an electronic trigger is only going to be adavantageous provided your hold is solid, sights are aligned and you have a smooth trigger release. i do not feel electronic is better than mechanical. you can the best equipment in the world, or what you think is the best, and still have a poor technique.

Mike Douglass