TargetTalk

Ladies and Gentlemen:

What are your feelings, pro and con, regarding the proposals for a compressed schedule for national level (USASNC and Selection matches) pistol/rifle competitions?

We had some discussions about this- and I know there is more to come- but what are the issues and how can we proceed?

Do you prefer current schedule, compressed by overlapping training days with finals days, or more compression?

Steve Swartz

Pistol, all pistol, should be shot in the period Starting Saturday and running no later than the following Saturday(including equipment checks). The same for rifle. I cannot, and will not take 2 weeks out of my busy season. I had hoped to return to the nationals this year, but I can't afford it. Most of us are real amateurs with a wife and a life. Shooting, while a passion, takes second seat.

You have to wonder why USAS bothered to have competitor meetings and solicit comments when they did so little to alleviate the problem. And of course, they wouldn't want to let their members in on their reasoning. USAS has a reputation among many local shooters as being capricious, arrogant, and unresponsive. In light of such actions, I find it hard to argue with that attitude.

Larry

Point of discussion:

Why have the athlete member meetings and worse, the athlete rep elections only at Nationals? Why is the vote of Joe/Jane Blow who pays his/her USAS dues evey year but can't afford to attend the USASNC any less important than the vote of some fully supported shooter who is paid to be at that event? One member, one vote.

Let's at least have the athlete rep nominations and elections done by mail, using a hardcopy ballot inserted in the USAS membership magazine. NRA can sort their several million copy membership magazines down to a local congressional district for each general election. USAS ought to be able to sort a mailing list for a couple thousand copies once a year down to 3 disciplines.

Another point to discuss:

For that matter, why not have several elected representatives of the USAS membership at large sitting on the Board of Trustees? Almost every other special interest group currently has a seat on the USAS board, like NRA, CMP, USAMU, NSSF, coaches, officials, et al, but who now speaks for the USAS general membership? Combine several USAS regions and take nominations from the membership of those regions, hold an election with ballots in the USAS magazine just like NRA has done for years and have these representatives speak on behalf of their local members, local clubs and the local volunteers who try to make this sport actually work day in and day out.

If USAS ever wants to give more than lip service to a grassroots development process and program, they need to also give a meaningful voice to the concerns and needs of the rank and file.

The conversation on this seems to have migrated down to Olympic Pistol.

Steve Swartz

I agree that it would be nice to be able to only take one week off and shoot all the events regardless of the event.

I think some people need to wake up and realize that some of us want to be able to show up and shoot peak levels for the events we shoot in.

Larry like you I have a wife and a life also. Because of this I do not have time to train in more than two events. This in one reason I stopped shooting rifle and started to shoot pistol. It did not make me happy that we had 3 matches to travel to each year to try and make the team. That is three weeks of vacation. Concentrating on Free and Air allows me to get to the top of my game. If I tried Rapid, Std and Center that would take away from the other events. If we want to get the best out of people then people need to focus on a one or a few events.

Fact of the matter is in Rifle most people shoot all the events. A few just shoot prone. In pistol you have slow fire people and rapid fire people. There are a few people that shoot both if they have the time/equipment to do so. Not too many can shoot both great and shoot at a world class level.

I realize that many people want to shoot in all the pistol events in one week but as Bob M. stated there are many issues going into putting on a good match for us to shoot in. we can continue to complain about the schedule or we can focus out attention on other things that need our attention also.

Get out and shoot and becom the best you can be.

Chris wrote:
I agree that it would be nice to be able to only take one week off and shoot all the events regardless of the event.

I think some people need to wake up and realize that some of us want to be able to show up and shoot peak levels for the events we shoot in.

Larry like you I have a wife and a life also. Because of this I do not have time to train in more than two events. This in one reason I stopped shooting rifle and started to shoot pistol. It did not make me happy that we had 3 matches to travel to each year to try and make the team. That is three weeks of vacation. Concentrating on Free and Air allows me to get to the top of my game. If I tried Rapid, Std and Center that would take away from the other events. If we want to get the best out of people then people need to focus on a one or a few events.

Fact of the matter is in Rifle most people shoot all the events. A few just shoot prone. In pistol you have slow fire people and rapid fire people. There are a few people that shoot both if they have the time/equipment to do so. Not too many can shoot both great and shoot at a world class level.

I realize that many people want to shoot in all the pistol events in one week but as Bob M. stated there are many issues going into putting on a good match for us to shoot in. we can continue to complain about the schedule or we can focus out attention on other things that need our attention also.

Get out and shoot and becom the best you can be.

I disagree. First off, for those that believe they can't be competitive in more than two events without lots of practice in-between, air pistol and free pistol could be spaced out toward opposite ends of the week. Besides, virtually everybody at the Nationals (including our US team members) aren't shooting at the world class level...most won't ever. So what they're shooting for fun. And I think we should encourage the idea that shooting is fun.

Chris wrote:I agree that it would be nice to be able to only take one week off and shoot all the events regardless of the event.

I think some people need to wake up and realize that some of us want to be able to show up and shoot peak levels for the events we shoot in.

Well Chris, I'm not asleep, nor do I think Steve is either.

First let me say that limiting yourself in training or competition is not always a good idea. If you pay attention at the nationals, you will have noticed that pistol people shoot most if not all events... and then go to Camp Perry and shoot the conventional pistol championship. US team members often find that they must represent the US in more than one event. If you want to make just one event your specialty, fine, but you really need to be a well rounded shooter too. And really, if you are a US team member and can't beat me twice in one day, then step aside and let someone more capable of coping with competition do it. Everyone is suffering the same handicap and the best shooter will win, Whether it is a 60 shot, 2 hour air pistol match or a 5 hour, 270 shot conventional match. Learn to deal with the conditions at hand and triumph.

The concern here is the health of the NC and the sport in general. Participation under the current system has fallen to levels where shooters won't be able to set national records because they don't have enough bodies on the line, and the participation continues to drop every year. The competitors at the NC brought this subject up. Our leaders apparently surveyed a few shooters, not the membership. They have no idea what the majority of their members want because they didn't ask. The cost per shooter of the NC will continue to rise and the available volunteer pool continue to drop as fewer and fewer shooters bother to go. Soon, only team members and the hopefuls we be there. Why don't we quit pretending and just call the NC the selection match.

I see little need to waste money on a NC until we have a state championship in every state, a zone championship in every zone, and a regional the same... in every event too. USAS has been eating its young far too long.

How's that for a controversial idea!

Larry

Larry,

A quick poll of the last 2 NC. FP/AP numbers are 2x of the RF/CF/STD. From memory it has been that way for a while. How can you say "... pistol people shoot most if not all events"? This is more true for Rifle.

How many of our top Free and Air shooters go to Camp Perry every year? I do not have the answer. Do you have some data to say they do? I know that when Neil C. was on the team years ago he wanted to shoot center fire and Erich was against it because it would take away from his focus and goals of getting the best Olympic team. I do not agree with the well rounded shooter for our US team members. If the US coach allows all of the national team members to train and shoot 5 events then it will take away from the ability for them to reach their potential in the events to get them a Gold Medal at the Big match.

We are not helping out our US team if we spread our training time on 4-5 guns and not focus on the events that will help push them higher. If it ever gets to the point where a 575 in Air does not make the Final we can all be happy because that will mean our top shooters are shooting world class scores.

I can see people at home may shoot more than one event to get some cross training and to get more match experiecne. I am all for it. I think it is good training but I think it should be limited I shoot other local matches in STD and Center for the fun of it. I do not spend any time training for them and I really do not care what my scores are. I just use if for training to help focus on the basics. I train for Free and then at the match we shoot free and then Center after.

Here is a crazy idea...Limit Nationals to Olympic events until the health of the sport grows and we can support more events. Non-O events should be limited to regionals, etc. I do not think this would lower the particpation. Who knows it could increase it somehow. From reading all the threads on this I get the feeling from some people they want to shoot all or none of the events. If they cannot take 2 weeks to show up they would rather not go. How does that help us? Then there are the people that have opinion about it and regardless of what happens they never even planned to show up and they seem bitter about it some how.

Just for a second think if the only shooting allowed in the US was Olympic related and that was it. Do you think our participation would increase? I think part of the probelm is there are too many distractions for some of us who have too many gun hobbies we want to particapate in and it takes away from other events. If you have 6 hrs per week that you can spend shooting and you split that up between 5 events you might improve over time. If you limit yourself to 2 guns you should improve faster and your score will reach higher levels.

I agree the membership as a whole should have been asked. I would have liked to express my opinion.

Some where there is a solution to our problem we just need to figure it out and support USAS as best we can because they are all we have at this point.[/quote]

All:

I agree with pretty much everything Larry said (now there's a scary thought!) but would like to add a little more emphasis to one key point.

If we are trying to select the competitor(s) who have the best chance at doing well in international level competition, we need competitors who demonstrate "robustness-" not necessarily competitors who do best (sometimes "barely slightly better") under ideal conditions per se.

Look, if you can't handle training on Free Pistol the afternoon of the last match/finals of Air Pistol . . . do we really want you representing our country going toe-toe with competitors from Country X who file a protest to get your firing point disqualified after you have already begun firing record shots so you end up losing 42 minutes and still have 60 shots to go . . . or send black-pajama guys into the locker room to damage your equipment the night before the match . . . or hire "protesters" to interrupt bus travel between the dorms and the venues . . . ?

Look, the point is that I at least honestly believe our elite pistol shooters (and wannabes, like me) should handle- and more importantly, can handle- something silly like the inconvenience of a compressed schedule.

Maybe our selection matches aren't challenging enough. Perhaps we should have to run an obstacle course prior to shooting- and then have someone turning the lights on and off, blasting rap music, and changing the thermostats during the match!

Steve Swartz

I disagree. My comments in bold.

Chris wrote:Larry,

A quick poll of the last 2 NC. FP/AP numbers are 2x of the RF/CF/STD. From memory it has been that way for a while. How can you say "... pistol people shoot most if not all events"? This is more true for Rifle.

The depressed numbers for RF/CF/STD and RF in particular shouldn't be used as an excuse to render them second class events. Rather, we should be looking for ways to boost participation, particularly in RF. I think we will be seeing an increased number of shooters giving RF a try since they will now be competitive with their standard pistol.

How many of our top Free and Air shooters go to Camp Perry every year? I do not have the answer. Do you have some data to say they do? I know that when Neil C. was on the team years ago he wanted to shoot center fire and Erich was against it because it would take away from his focus and goals of getting the best Olympic team. I do not agree with the well rounded shooter for our US team members. If the US coach allows all of the national team members to train and shoot 5 events then it will take away from the ability for them to reach their potential in the events to get them a Gold Medal at the Big match.

And Erich is no longer the coach and the we didn't exactly achieve stunning success on the international level under his tutelage. I'm not saying he's wrong, but perhaps other ideas should be explored. Regardless, if the coach feels the National Team would be hurt by diversifying, then fine, THEY don't have to diversify. They're big boys and girls and can decide which events they want to focus on. But the Nationals should be about more than just the National Team. It should be a match for the benefit of ALL ISSF shooters in the US. In this sense, I think it is ultimately best for the sport if the National Team takes a back seat to the other 99.99% of ISSF shooters out there. IMHO, the USAS' main priority should be advancing the SPORT, not advancing the TEAM. Advance the sport, and the team will naturally get better as the pool of shooters grows.

We are not helping out our US team if we spread our training time on 4-5 guns and not focus on the events that will help push them higher. If it ever gets to the point where a 575 in Air does not make the Final we can all be happy because that will mean our top shooters are shooting world class scores.

Again, we should cater to the SPORT, not just to the NATIONAL TEAM. If they feel the need to specialize, then let the National Team members choose to specialize.

I can see people at home may shoot more than one event to get some cross training and to get more match experiecne. I am all for it. I think it is good training but I think it should be limited. I shoot other local matches in STD and Center for the fun of it. I do not spend any time training for them and I really do not care what my scores are. I just use if for training to help focus on the basics. I train for Free and then at the match we shoot free and then Center after.

I don't think it should be limited at all. Any increased opportunity to allow shooters to shoot an ISSF event should be taken.

Here is a crazy idea...Limit Nationals to Olympic events until the health of the sport grows and we can support more events. Non-O events should be limited to regionals, etc. I do not think this would lower the particpation. Who knows it could increase it somehow.

Definitely disagree with this idea! If you decrease the number of events you decrease the opportunities to shoot ISSF events, when there are already very few opportunities as it is. Further, you run the risk of delegitimatizing the non-Olympic events and gradually, fewer people will shoot them. Eventually, we will see fewer and fewer Olympic shooting events. This sort of thing is already happening. How many Olympic shooting events have we lost in the last 40 years or so? We don't need to hurt ourselves by creating excuses to eliminate ISSF events when others are doing a good enough job of that already (IOC, anti-gun media, etc.) If anything, we should be doing our best to PROMOTE these non-Olympic events to keep them popular and (g-d forbid!) actually attempt to get them ADDED as Olympic events!!!

From reading all the threads on this I get the feeling from some people they want to shoot all or none of the events. If they cannot take 2 weeks to show up they would rather not go. How does that help us? Then there are the people that have opinion about it and regardless of what happens they never even planned to show up and they seem bitter about it some how.

I agree with what you say about how some want to shoot all the events or not go at all, but how does stretching out the match for two weeks help??? By doing so, you've forced a large number of potential competitors to stay home! You have GUARANTEED a lower turnout!!! Frankly, I don't know about everyone out there, but a lot of folks I know only get a week or two of vacation from work for the entire year! You're already asking a hell of a lot from the average joe just to show up for ONE week, much less two! If you believe the goal of having a National Championship should be just a match where only the elite meet'n'greet (National Team, NDT, and "serious" hopefuls) then why even bother with a National Championship for the unwashed masses? You can just hold a small club match at the OTC for those top 15-20 or so shooters.

Just for a second think if the only shooting allowed in the US was Olympic related and that was it. Do you think our participation would increase? I think part of the probelm is there are too many distractions for some of us who have too many gun hobbies we want to particapate in and it takes away from other events. If you have 6 hrs per week that you can spend shooting and you split that up between 5 events you might improve over time. If you limit yourself to 2 guns you should improve faster and your score will reach higher levels.

I think your hypothetical is irrational as it would never happen, but I would say no. Frankly, many shooters of other disciplines would never be interested in ISSF style shooting. Many just see it as boring. Regardless, I don't see how LESS opportunity has ever been better in the longterm for any sport. Why should we force or even encourage less opportunity for shooters. Give shooters an opportunity and let THEM prioritize which events they want to shoot.

I agree the membership as a whole should have been asked. I would have liked to express my opinion.

Glad we agree on that.

Some where there is a solution to our problem we just need to figure it out and support USAS as best we can because they are all we have at this point.

I agree we should support USAS, but not blindly and not complacently. A National Governing Body needs to be more than just a fundraiser and booster club for the National Team. It needs to do what's best for ALL shooters of the sport and for what is best for the sport in the longterm.

[/quote]

Steve Swartz wrote:All:

<snip>
Look, if you can't handle training on Free Pistol the afternoon of the last match/finals of Air Pistol . . . do we really want you representing our country going toe-toe with competitors from Country X who file a protest to get your firing point disqualified after you have already begun firing record shots so you end up losing 42 minutes and still have 60 shots to go . . . or send black-pajama guys into the locker room to damage your equipment the night before the match . . . or hire "protesters" to interrupt bus travel between the dorms and the venues . . . ?
<snip>
Steve Swartz

Holy crap! Has this sort of stuff actually happened before???

One thing I know is there are many countries out there that only have access to a few kinds of guns and they are kicking our ass at major matches. There are a lot of people in the US if they only had the option to shoot what we shoot then I think they would show up and shoot. I do not want this to happen here but I am not so sure that it might have a positive effect on this sport.

If USAS does not produce enough medals consistantly do you think the USOC will continue to support this sport? I hope so. Currenlty Rifle and Shotgun are keeping us going. If pistol does not catch up we could get left behind when the plane leaves for the Olympics. USAS is focused on Gold Medals as the final goal. To do that they need to support the sport also. We play a big role in helping them do that so they can make sure the best gets what they need to get to the top. As members we need to help at the bottom to build up the grass roots and all the stuff we have talked about before.

Like many of us I am stuck in the middle some where trying to figure out that last few things that get my scores up those last few points to get me in the top 3.

It does appear USAS is determined not to alter the nationals schedule for this year. We just received a further email from Bob Mitchell. Maybe it's a little late now, but following is my reply to his original email that was published in the Olympic Pistol thread.

Hi Bob,

I'd like to address some of the points you made to Joel Sexton regarding the scheduling of pistol events at the USAS National Championships. I think Dr Sexton has many good ideas regarding the compressing of a pistol schedule, in fact you will remember in 2002 I gave you a similar proposal. In case you were not aware, we polled Target Talk readers some months back on this very topic, hoping to get some wider idea of how many people might be attracted to a shortened program. The results, and corresponding discussion, can be seen at viewtopic.php?t=9450 .



Please consider the following points in regard to your comments:



"Since that meeting, we have spoken with many pistol shooters and Buddy DuVall did a survey himself. Input we received indicates shooters want to shoot two times over each event course, they desire quality training time and do not want to shoot two matches in one day. Buddy only received nine responses to his survey and had to solicit a portion of those. Tuesday morning Mary discussed these nationals schedule alternatives with shooters here for a camp and came away with the same result."



Scott Pilkington and I spoke with Buddy a few months ago and tried to explain why a shortened program might be beneficial. Can I clarify exactly what was asked of the shooters? If they were asked if they would shoot "two matches in one day", was it spelled out that no Olympic matches would double up, that a non-Olympic match would be shot in the afternoon? If I were asked to shoot two Free Pistol matches in one day I would certainly refuse. Of the nine shooters (and I wasn't one of them), how many were full time shooters? I ask this because we seem to be getting an entirely differing picture of what the shooters want.



"Two years ago at nationals free pistol training was only provided in the afternoon following another competition. Competitors complained strongly and at that year's competitor meeting the consensus was to have a training day between events, which we have provided."



I guess if every other event had a training day scheduled the specialist Free shooters would have felt they were at a disadvantage.



"In selecting the NT/NDT/USST there has never been a national coach in any discipline willing to select team members based upon one course of fire."



At no stage did any of the proposals suggest this. In the first proposal it was suggested that two matches be shot, doubling in the afternoons with non-Olympic events, and having practice sessions combined on competition days. As far as the Olympic events are concerned, this is no more arduous than at a World Cup. The second proposal was to shoot each event once over the course over a long weekend (Thursday to Sunday) for the "popular Nationals" followed by the second matches over the next week for those who want to remain and try out for the team.



"In most competitions multiple courses let the better shooters' skills prevail. We have also seen this at the Junior Olympic Championships where the more highly skilled shooters have a poor performance the first day and come back with a more representative score the second course. While shooting multiple courses does require more days, the overwhelming consensus from shooters, coaches and parents is to shoot multiple courses at the higher-level competitions. There was a time when the USST selection for pistol was three separate competitions with one course of fire at each. The major complaint was that folks did not want to travel to shoot only one course of fire.
Shooting one course of fire at the nationals would negatively impact the quality and integrity of the event. The nationals are to be a premier competition. Shooting one course of fire to determine the national champions would place the event in the same category/status as a local/regional event."



Here I have to disagree. Is there a more premier competition that the Olympics? World Championships? World Cups? Do any of these events give a second chance? As elite athletes we have to perform on demand, when the chips are down. Ingraining a "try again tomorrow" mentality will not make us tougher at International level.



"We have used a fall and spring match to select the USST keeping the nationals out of the selection process. While this process has been successful in shotgun, it has not proven to be so in rifle and pistol. We have experienced poor participation, which not only makes it difficult for the match to work financially, but low participation also limits the field eligible for the USST and creates a poor environment for overall performance development. While the objective was to provide three quality events (fall, spring and nationals) thus enhancing training and skill development, this has not been successful. Shooters cite limitations imposed by school, work and lack of funding."



It is not successful because it involves a lot of time away from home three times a year, with every day after noon "dead" time. For resident athletes and the military this is not an issue, and maybe when there were multiple armed forces teams involved there would have still been high levels of participation.



"This brings us back to the age-old conflict of using the nationals as USST selection vehicle for the elite shooters rather than as a membership participation event to better accommodate the desires of the general shooter base."



I guess the question of the chicken and the egg is relevant here. If you don't appeal to "the desires of the general shooting base" by making the event more accessible (affordable) you will end up with little more than the elite shooters participating. Which is the pattern we are seeing more strongly every year.



"Changing the pistol schedule is not as easy as it may appear. The rifle and pistol schedules must mesh. Those discipline events must overlay to make effective use of range time and volunteer labor. We cannot justify the additional expense of having days of only rifle or pistol events."


Admittedly rifle is not as flexible as pistol for scheduling. It is unreasonable to expect any rifle shooter to shoot two events in one day, or even to shoot in the afternoons in all of their specialized clothing in a southern Georgia summer. Should we, as pistol shooters, be disadvantaged because of this? Shouldn't "effective use of range time" also include afternoons?



"We also have to consider time and work involved with range change over between events/disciplines. It may be easy to ask volunteers to work additional hours but that decision is not without challenges. Volunteers are key to conducting our competitions. Most are over 50 years of age and they will not nor can they work longer days if we want them to return for future matches. We currently receive pushback from 25 and particularly 50-meter staff as a result of long days, hot weather, insufficient help and little appreciation. When we ask them to run extended practice following a match and finals, they are not pleased."


I must admit I have always found the volunteer staff to be helpful and cheerful. I have seen on a couple of occasions, when relatively few (maybe 2 or 3) shooters have wanted to practise in the afternoon - rather than go back to the hotel room and watch TV - leaving range staff to sit around waiting for them to finish. That would probably bug me too. I hate to think any of them ever considered me lacking in appreciation. Most of the volunteers are long-time shooters. I find it hard to believe they would not want to see better attended matches. The type of shooter we would be picking up would be the guy (or gal) who mainly shoots at his home club. Not your prima donna who treats the volunteers like the hired help. In fact, having more "regular" shooters is more likely to lighten the load of the volunteers, especially if they are asked to help in cleaning up the range AFTER the match. This is not unreasonable; at Camp Perry every shooter is expected to pick up every empty shell casing, even 22 caliber.



Not to try to make a direct comparison, but the volunteers at Camp Perry work from about 7am until 4 or 5 pm (depending on range breakdowns). The Ohio summer is no less cruel than Georgia, and there is no shade out there. Maybe what makes it all worthwhile is the great camaraderie of almost 800 shooters doing what they love.



I'm sure we all have the same aims - to make this sport stronger. I don't believe the Nationals can grow in their current format.



Regards

Warren Potter

What he said.

I shot at the nationals back in the "good old days", 1984, at Prado Tiro in "LA". As I recall, we shot olympic matches in the morning, with either training or less important matches (i.e. standard pistol) in the afternoons. That seemed to work very well. I would have been rather upset to travel all that way (from Indiana) just to shoot in the mornings only.

I've also done volunteer work, most notably at the 1987 Pan Am Games in Indianapolis, and we were all there to help out any way we could, as long as necessary.

I'd like to start shooting nationals again, but not in their current format and associated expense. Warren is dead on target.

Lee

Thanks Warren, well put.

One thing we haven't mentioned so far is that many competitors come with an attached volunteer... wives, girlfriends. One of the reasons that the NRA has so much help is that they have so darned many shooters.

Larry

I was one of the nine people who replied to Buddy Duval, replied to Warren's poll here in Target Talk and sign Doc's petition at the Nationals. I also attended the membership meeting at the Nationals last year.

The compressed schedule is a much better option in my opinion. I doubt that it will increase the number of entries in AP or FP very much. It will have a positive effect on the number of entries in rapid, standard and Centerfire. The schedule is just too long and too expensive except for the very most dedicated.

I stayed for standard at one national a few years ago but never will again with the current schedule. Whilst I am training for making the "team", I have not developed the discipline in my training at to date. But I would like to shoot the other events, support USAS, and hoefully get closer to making the team in several events.

The problem with the USAS nationals is that they are extremely boring. Once you are done shooting at about 11AM, what do you do? A few of us get together for diner, I have met a few people I will call freinds, I work out a bit and dry fire... but the operative word tends to be not much happens.

The only way to increase attendance at the nationals is to hold local PTO's and talk to the competitors aobut attending the Nationals. Grassroots.

Unfortunately, I feel there is little interest at USAS in Grassroots.

This will be my first year to the nationals with my son. I would like to see a compressed schedule. My son would like to shoot each event but I am limited by time I can take off. When you think of ten days of matches and two travel days from the west coast that is asking a little to much.

Why not move the sporting pistol traning to the evening and start on june 16th.

I and my son would shoot each event if we could be done in 6-7days.

Greg:

Welcome to the Ramparts! Pick up a swabbing stick and grab a can of powder . . .

Steve Swartz

(apparently, following simple common sense requires a revolution around here!)