Hi,
Does sight radius have a significant importance on training?
Will the long sight radius only help to shorten the trace length or will it in addition to that benefit in training to hold still? Another 4 inch on a free pistol will not make the result go up, but will it help the training process?
I am using a SCATT for training and when shooting air gun program with standard pistol (Morini 102 E) the trace length will raise to 120. With air gun it is about 80. When shooting free pistol program the trace will be 650 instead of 450 when I use a real free pistol.
By the way, with latest software the SCATT has red and green lights in sport pistol. Nice for training.
Kent
Sight radius
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Steve Swartz
Reinhamre:
Theoretically, the longer sight radius (all other things being equal) *might* give one the ability to perceive smaller errors, leading to tighter hold.
In reality, seeing smaller errors is not necessarily a good thing. By seeing insignificant error, you run the risk of interfering with your trigger control and shot release. Not a very fair trade-off.
Indeed, many shooters have experimented with shorter sight radius, and have *perceived* a more stable hold (seeing less error than is actually there) and accrued great benefit.
So the short answer to your question is:
- A longer sight radius makes the error look larger
- This may make it possible to tighten your hold
- But you don't want that at the cost you have to pay
Steve Swartz
Theoretically, the longer sight radius (all other things being equal) *might* give one the ability to perceive smaller errors, leading to tighter hold.
In reality, seeing smaller errors is not necessarily a good thing. By seeing insignificant error, you run the risk of interfering with your trigger control and shot release. Not a very fair trade-off.
Indeed, many shooters have experimented with shorter sight radius, and have *perceived* a more stable hold (seeing less error than is actually there) and accrued great benefit.
So the short answer to your question is:
- A longer sight radius makes the error look larger
- This may make it possible to tighten your hold
- But you don't want that at the cost you have to pay
Steve Swartz
Re: Sight radius
I suppose, that in main part I'll repeat Steve's reply, nevertheless:
Longer sight radius is useful for shooters with high skill, with extra-steandiness, with high sport-psychology level.
Steve has already written almost everything about it.
Useful off-topic:
I want to add some from practice (now I'll talk about usual shooter, with usual possibilities): Let's image a shooter. He has two pistols AP and FP. Sight lines of pistols are approx. the same.
He knows, that he must careful control sighting on FP (now we're talking about sight line and sighting). He already knows picture of "10" and "9" on Free Pistol. And he already knows: if picture be not close to ideal: he'll get 7, 6... etc.
When he shots AP (with the same sight line length) - he SEES AS he CAN NEGLECT SIGHTING and DO "10s" and "9s"!!! Yeah, on AP we can really have not ideal sighting and shot tens and nines!!! After AP he comes to FP and subconscious does errors (he thinks that sighting NEGLECT ist harmless)!!!
Conclusion: if shooter doesn't understand shooting theory - it would be better to use shorter sight line in AP...
Longer sight radius is useful for shooters with high skill, with extra-steandiness, with high sport-psychology level.
Steve has already written almost everything about it.
Useful off-topic:
I want to add some from practice (now I'll talk about usual shooter, with usual possibilities): Let's image a shooter. He has two pistols AP and FP. Sight lines of pistols are approx. the same.
He knows, that he must careful control sighting on FP (now we're talking about sight line and sighting). He already knows picture of "10" and "9" on Free Pistol. And he already knows: if picture be not close to ideal: he'll get 7, 6... etc.
When he shots AP (with the same sight line length) - he SEES AS he CAN NEGLECT SIGHTING and DO "10s" and "9s"!!! Yeah, on AP we can really have not ideal sighting and shot tens and nines!!! After AP he comes to FP and subconscious does errors (he thinks that sighting NEGLECT ist harmless)!!!
Conclusion: if shooter doesn't understand shooting theory - it would be better to use shorter sight line in AP...
Sight radius
Yes I agree with you so far
But lock at the problem like this:
In training use 4 inch longer sight line and get used to it
In a match go back to standard sight radius and you will benefit from a more steady hold.
You will be spoiled a bit and shoot better with shorter radius. But only for a short time. Then one is back on square one again.
By making it more difficult in this way when training one can also make it easier in a match.
The origin of my idea comes from experience.
1 I have made my best score with SIG 210-6
2 100p does happen in air pistol with the short version of 162E not the standard (yet)
After some time it is hard to make 96 with air pistol so back to long version again.
Any one with similar experience?
Kent
But lock at the problem like this:
In training use 4 inch longer sight line and get used to it
In a match go back to standard sight radius and you will benefit from a more steady hold.
You will be spoiled a bit and shoot better with shorter radius. But only for a short time. Then one is back on square one again.
By making it more difficult in this way when training one can also make it easier in a match.
The origin of my idea comes from experience.
1 I have made my best score with SIG 210-6
2 100p does happen in air pistol with the short version of 162E not the standard (yet)
After some time it is hard to make 96 with air pistol so back to long version again.
Any one with similar experience?
Kent
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Steve Swartz
Kent:
Yes, your approach has a sound theoretical basis. We use it in many sports to "kick" at a plateau or "step" in a training program. For example, the sprinter training with a parachute to increase resistance.
However, one critical aspect of shooting is very different from other sports (like the example above). The principle would apply to many of the technical and physical aspects of shooting like muscular tone and stability, etc. The "Wobble Board" drills are an example. The principle may not apply to the shot process itself.
For example, do you think it would be an advantage to developing your shot process by training with a slower lock time, then reaping "advantage" during a match with fast lock time? No, of course not. Would it be an advantage to train with a smaller aiming bull, then moving to a larger one? Hmmm perhaps not. Narrower front and rear sights, then move to wider??
You must be careful to consider the nature of the "spillover effect" compared to the actual "training effect" desired. And you must carefully distribute the spillover training activities against your training plan. While each of three examples above plus the longer sight radius example might provide some spillover effect benefit, you certainly wouldn't want to train with teh dissimilar situation right up until the day before the match.
The principle is to balance the beneficial amount of "crosstraining" for the "spillover effect" against the specificity principle of training under the exact conditions to be faced.
For rough strength/endurance skills (like sprinting), you would incorporate the cross-training very differently into your overall training plan than fine motor/technique type skills.
Steve Swartz
Yes, your approach has a sound theoretical basis. We use it in many sports to "kick" at a plateau or "step" in a training program. For example, the sprinter training with a parachute to increase resistance.
However, one critical aspect of shooting is very different from other sports (like the example above). The principle would apply to many of the technical and physical aspects of shooting like muscular tone and stability, etc. The "Wobble Board" drills are an example. The principle may not apply to the shot process itself.
For example, do you think it would be an advantage to developing your shot process by training with a slower lock time, then reaping "advantage" during a match with fast lock time? No, of course not. Would it be an advantage to train with a smaller aiming bull, then moving to a larger one? Hmmm perhaps not. Narrower front and rear sights, then move to wider??
You must be careful to consider the nature of the "spillover effect" compared to the actual "training effect" desired. And you must carefully distribute the spillover training activities against your training plan. While each of three examples above plus the longer sight radius example might provide some spillover effect benefit, you certainly wouldn't want to train with teh dissimilar situation right up until the day before the match.
The principle is to balance the beneficial amount of "crosstraining" for the "spillover effect" against the specificity principle of training under the exact conditions to be faced.
For rough strength/endurance skills (like sprinting), you would incorporate the cross-training very differently into your overall training plan than fine motor/technique type skills.
Steve Swartz
Sight radius
Steve:
Wobble Board is good, two is even better, but one must be blind folded to make a real benefit from it. If you concentrate on sights it is like you forget what is around you, thus your control of the surroundings is nil.
Use a mirror when shooting once in a while, it is nice to turn the head the other way, a muscle relief, and it sure is hard enough to hit the black.
Are there more ways to add obstacles, when training that will benefit my skill?
Kent
Wobble Board is good, two is even better, but one must be blind folded to make a real benefit from it. If you concentrate on sights it is like you forget what is around you, thus your control of the surroundings is nil.
Use a mirror when shooting once in a while, it is nice to turn the head the other way, a muscle relief, and it sure is hard enough to hit the black.
Are there more ways to add obstacles, when training that will benefit my skill?
Kent
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Steve Swartz
Kent:
Certainly you are aware of the standard aiming/pointing and dry fire drills (pump trigger on blank, pump trigger on bull, snap trigger on blank, snap trigger on bull). Also the Edelman "concentration target" live fire/dry fire drills. These are all "direct effect" training exercises to be found in many books.
Here are some more "indirect effect" drills (like crosstraining idea with different sight radius/blade/notch sizes):
- Train with differential lighting. All Dark, All Bright, Sights Dark/Target Bright, Sights Bright/Target Dark.
- Train with light weight suspended on 3' string from muzzle, then grip. Dry fire/live fire/pointing exercises with weight swaying.
- Train with stance radically departed from natural point of aim (rotated, shifted right/left/forward/back).
- Train with both extended (20 sec) and compressed (3 sec) holding times.
- Train with greatly increased and/or decreased trigger force.
These are technical development drills that will not DIRECTLY improve your shot process. They will "broaden" and "deepen" your skills, but not "sharpen" them (if that makes sense). Therefore, they should be inserted as a supplement to your training plan and treated accordingly. Add a supplement or two per week; don't add these supplements when on peak curve for match.
I find these work best to include immediately after big matches, then reduce frequency leading up to match.
"More" is not necessarily "better" with indirect effect (cross-training) drills.
Have you liked dry firing while on the wobble boards? If you can stop laughing, it takes great concentration! (I have yet to try dry firing on wobble boards with swaying weight- maybe soon!)
Steve Swartz
Certainly you are aware of the standard aiming/pointing and dry fire drills (pump trigger on blank, pump trigger on bull, snap trigger on blank, snap trigger on bull). Also the Edelman "concentration target" live fire/dry fire drills. These are all "direct effect" training exercises to be found in many books.
Here are some more "indirect effect" drills (like crosstraining idea with different sight radius/blade/notch sizes):
- Train with differential lighting. All Dark, All Bright, Sights Dark/Target Bright, Sights Bright/Target Dark.
- Train with light weight suspended on 3' string from muzzle, then grip. Dry fire/live fire/pointing exercises with weight swaying.
- Train with stance radically departed from natural point of aim (rotated, shifted right/left/forward/back).
- Train with both extended (20 sec) and compressed (3 sec) holding times.
- Train with greatly increased and/or decreased trigger force.
These are technical development drills that will not DIRECTLY improve your shot process. They will "broaden" and "deepen" your skills, but not "sharpen" them (if that makes sense). Therefore, they should be inserted as a supplement to your training plan and treated accordingly. Add a supplement or two per week; don't add these supplements when on peak curve for match.
I find these work best to include immediately after big matches, then reduce frequency leading up to match.
"More" is not necessarily "better" with indirect effect (cross-training) drills.
Have you liked dry firing while on the wobble boards? If you can stop laughing, it takes great concentration! (I have yet to try dry firing on wobble boards with swaying weight- maybe soon!)
Steve Swartz
Sight radius
Hi.
The mirror trick is wery hard.
Today I will try the support as I have red about in:
http://www.pilkguns.com/coach/anatoli2.htm
He says that I must start trigger pressure before the final concentrating on sights. The sighting should be an ongoing process. I will bye this. It is very hard to start a new process when concentrating on sights and everything is locked up
BTW rifle shooters are advised not to use shoes when training, I think I am on the right track.
I have one file (sport pistol) uploaded the SCATT site.There is only one more to compare with. Why not upload for others to take a look at?
Has retired last month and shoot “full time” now.
Regards
Kent
The mirror trick is wery hard.
Today I will try the support as I have red about in:
http://www.pilkguns.com/coach/anatoli2.htm
He says that I must start trigger pressure before the final concentrating on sights. The sighting should be an ongoing process. I will bye this. It is very hard to start a new process when concentrating on sights and everything is locked up
BTW rifle shooters are advised not to use shoes when training, I think I am on the right track.
I have one file (sport pistol) uploaded the SCATT site.There is only one more to compare with. Why not upload for others to take a look at?
Has retired last month and shoot “full time” now.
Regards
Kent