TargetTalk

Three of us at the club where I shoot have had the frames crack on our SP20's; one of them an RRS and the other two regular SP20's. All cracked at the same spot, at the bottom front of the ejection port where the frame thins to about a millimeter or two as the cutouts for the recoil spring guides end. Looking at how thin the aluminum is at this point I'm not really surprised, but apparently it's supposed to be a fluke. Has anyone else heard of this happening?

Were these .32 or .22 versions? I have heard about some problems on .32, but .22 is news to me.

-T

A team mate had a cracked .32 frame in exactly the same place you describe. Frame was returned to factory and was replaced. I took pictures of unit and we sent these to Hammerli before “speculatively” posting the frame so they were expecting it to arrive. Note the Hammerli factory new address on their web site unless your US dealer/distributor handles returns.

In all 3 cases, the guns are used to shoot both .22 and .32, with the conversion kit and swapping out of parts on the same frame.

Hammerli has just this week replaced the frames, which is great, but the design has not changed so far as I can tell, hence my concern that it's just going to happen again after a while. That's really why I'm posting: I want to know if it's a design flaw. What I'm hearing from here so far is that the problem may be related to shooting .32, which would be interesting to confirm. I wonder if adjusting the recoil buffer would help ease the pressures on the frame when shooting .32. Mind you, we all had problems with that breaking, too -- or rather, the adjustment screw for it. Because of that, we have it screwed all of the way so that it doesn't do anything in an effort to preserve it.

Two of the guns (not mine yet) also had the .22 slide crack along one of the "ears" that you pull back to cycle the action. These were also replaced on those two guns, with a new stronger design.

I love almost everything about the gun but its engineering!

Cracked frames, even of .22 autos? A persistent problem. The cause of this is partly inadequate ingeneering, partly that the aforementioned manufacturers are "guinea pigging "the customers, in my opinion.

Early Walther GSPs had the common german "bolt stay open after last shot" feature. But cracks appeared just where the "bolt retainer" was fixed to the frame. (By the way the frame of GSPs are rather crudely finished aluminium castings. No to my liking.)

The remedy: the Walther factory just skipped the "stay open" feature. Problem (mostly) solved!

Cracking Haemmerlies? Yes. Have heard abot this plaque for years. If you ask factory officials the will deny this.
But other models are cracking too. The Pardinis are (was) even more prone to cracking, but this was denied by the factory. So they added some reinforcing "ribs" on the outside of the frame! To fix a problem that according to themselves did not exist!?

Dear ingeneers: please make the frames of the .22 autos more rigid. So they can withstand the enormous recoilforces of the .22 rimfire cartridge. (or of the brutal, mammoth .32 S&W L wadcutter cartridge).

An old gunsmith once told me the life expectancy of the average (steel) target handgun was 30K firing cycles. I'd expect a bit more from a 22 and less from a larger caliber.

30k (=30.000) firing cycles? And after that a retired wallhanger? Luckily, the world is some better than that, i think and hope.

The lifespan of a good .22 is in the 100.000 to 200.000 rounds ballpark, according to the military team leaders. (Those team members realy consume some ammo during a year!). Mostly centerfire that is, but some practice a lot with .22s)
Of course recoil springc are to be exchanged every few thousand rounds, as do probably magazine springs, hammers, firingpins etc. But not the frames.

But some guns af mediocre quality might succomb even well before 30.000 rounds. So an estimated average of 30.000? Well, maybe.

I try to buy guns of the highest quality (that regrettably demand hefty prices). But high quality guns pay off in the long run.

The customer should make claims against the manufacturer, however, when some of the most expensive target .22 autos available crack their frames after a few thousand rounds, - much less that the 30.000 rounds postulated above.

Specimens of the famous Swiss SIG-Neuhausen 210-series 9mm (target) autos are known to have survived over 80.000 rounds (documented) with flying colors. (I have to ad this is when they are never fed the ultra high power sub-machinegun ammo). Mine has done over 33.000 rounds, mostly lead bullets reloads though, of medium power. There is hardly any wear detectable. The bluing is showing some wear, though. But no, the frame is not cracked.

I'll speak of my gun; one of the others in question here is comparable in terms of use and the other considerably less. The gun has fired about 75% .22LR and 25% .32 S&W Long. The screw for the recoil buffer split in two pieces after about 1,000 rounds. The frame cracked somewhere between 5-10,000 rounds; it's hard to know because it's one of those things where one of us noticed the crack in the frame and then the others realized it was on theirs, too. On the RRS, his finger-adjustable rear sight broke after probably 3-4,000 rounds. Cracks developed in the .22 slides at about the same time as the cracks in the frame.

All broken parts have been replaced without charge. No replaced part has broken again (yet).

Nevertheless, I have to agree that these are expensive firearms intended for serious shooters over a long haul and that replacing broken parts, while acceptable, is not what we look for. I probably shoot about 15,000 rounds through the Hammerli a year, plus another 6-8,000 rounds through my .45's, and I expect my guns to do it without falling apart or wearing out for a long time. I think we all know shooters with 20-30 year old Walthers that are still shooting them just fine.

We had many H280 frame cracks with certain makes of ammunition, notably some batches of CBC and Magetch, whilst at 25m remarkably accurate, they claimed multiple frames! I believe all were replaced under warrantee.

Hammerli sold “strengthening bars” made I believe of aluminium and were mounted on the front of the pistol in place of the barrel weights. Once fitted, these bars could (should) not be removed. The bars appeared to address some of the stresses in the overall frame and to my knowledge, no units cracked with this modification but at the time (pre 1996, we shooters did not have TargetTalk to share knowledge. My H280’s did well over 40k (.22) and 20k (.32) rounds and now still going strong with a team mate at the helm!

Whist these H280 bars were not installed exactly where the frames cracked, it was thought by some of the engineers amongst the shooters in the UK that this reduced the overall “twist” of the frame during firing and recoil that either caused or exacerbated weaknesses.

I do not know of any stiffening option for the SP20 frame – if anybody knows of any, I would be interested as the recoil feel was certainly improved with the H280 bars and I would prefer my .22/.32 SP20’s to have the same.

The following two items are linked to the overall rigidity and firing of the pistol and may be relevant (?).

(a) the torque setting for the three front screws of the SP20 is vital for consistency and overall frame rigidity; I do not recall this setting value as I only have the adjustment position marked on my own ratchet driver I keep with the pistol (sorry).
(b) ditto reason - the recoil buffer adjustment is also a critical setting (especially for .32) and that the optimal distance between the buffer and rear plate is 21mm requiring callipers to set and check this setting.
David Levene gave me an excellent service tip – scheduled replacement of this adjustment screw can save replacing the whole and costly buffer!

I find this discussion incredible. Over on the Bullseye-L board there has been a discussion of low end 22 pistols (S&W, Ruger) and high end (Hammerli, Walther, Pardini, etc) with the general view that you get what you pay for. But a Walther that cost 5X a Ruger should not only shoot a lot better but also last a lot longer. What's the point of spending all that money if the gun has to go back to factory for an overhaul every few years?

Hmm. I find the comments from PaulT vaguely disturbing. The manual with the gun makes no mention of any specific torque setting for the three screws that hold the barrel to the frame, whether .22 or .32, only cautioning to "Absolutely use all 3 screws!". No kidding. Given that I swap barrels for the centrefire portion of each practice/match, having to use a torque wrench to do so would be a major pain in the a$$.

Again, while the manual provides a recommendation for setting the recoil buffer for hard or soft ammunition, it does not make mention of a specific position as being required. Indeed, if it needs to be set that specifically, why provide an adjustment screw in the first place?

The saddest thing for me is that such a beautiful firearm in so many respects (accuracy, grip, trigger and sight adjustments, etc.) is blemished by not being durable enough for its intended purpose.

Sorry to brak the flow of the present discussion.

Was there any mentioning of the ammunition used in the 3 cases of cracked frame? Also How 'bout the JPS buffer setting on all 3 guns.

While not all three guns used exactly the same ammunition, I know for certain two use Eley Practice in .22 and I think the third one as well. In terms of .32, it was a mix of Fiocchi followed by reloads of about 1.7-1.9 gr of W231 so far as I know. I believe that in all three guns (two for sure again) the recoil buffer was screwed all of the way in so that the screw would not break (again). This last bit intrigues me. Since the recoil buffer was set to its minimum adjustment, in an attempt to prevent the adjustment screw from breaking again, I wonder if excessive force was thus transmitted to that oh-so-thin part of the frame. With the new frame, I have set the adjustment on the recoil buffer of mine back to the recommended setting in a hope to preserve the frame. We'll see how long the adjustment screw lasts!

EdStevens wrote:We'll see how long the adjustment screw lasts!

Change the screw regularly, before it breaks off in the buffer.

I checked my new Hammerli frame tonight for signs of cracking and noticed that there does indeed seem to be a modification to the new frame. Where the crack occurred in the original frame there is a thin triple band in the new frame, barely visible in the ejection port cutout, that I had not noticed before. I'm speculating that they may have added some kind of reinforcing insert into the frame at that point, though I can't be certain. If so, I apologize to Hammerli for making it sound like the problem had not been addressed.

I agree. There are slight modifications to the frames. I think they have adressed the problem.
We experienced a couple of cracked frames in my country with the very first production run.

You are right, I think it is a tradition by Haemmerli to remedy any problem with their guns. Good.