TargetTalk

Hi,
I have a question to those who are the premier shooters. I must mention that I am new to the sport. I don't own a pistol at this time, (other than a IZH46). I plan to purchase a Steyr LP10 or Morini 162EI.

My Question is this:
When sighting in a new pistol for 10M shooting (or competition shooting), what is the best hold on a target. Strictly 6 O'Clock or sub 6 O'clock.

If you said 6 O'Clock thank you. If you said sub 6 O'Clock please explain where you would hold on a 10M target. Give me specifics where you would hold. What rings are we talking about. Thanking you all in advance for your help to a novice. thanks again Lee

There is no simple cut and dry answer to this question. If I use the methods I did in Coaching Intercollegiate shooters---I started them with a centre hold and most continued that throughout their collegiate careers---some felt they were better off with a sub-6. Your problem here as a newbie on the block---is to develop a good sight picture and to learn to expect (wobble) movement---regardless of where you are "holding". Knowing that means that now you can with a good "consistent" sight picture and expecting the movement to occur---the next step is to start the sque-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-ze and continue the squeeze until the shot breaks or your mind says "put the gun down stupid it ain't gonna work this time." All of that being said will require hours of dry firing, grip development, sight picture, and stance development. You've got a long row to hoe and how well you do is dependent on your patience---you will not break 400 or 500 for quite a while---be happy they are all on the target and within the rings---then you get "hungry for the black". Try to read about stance, grips and practise, practise, practise. By all means good luck

Lee,

I use a sub 6 hold. What I do is have the same amount of light between the top of the sight post and the target that I have between the side of the sight post and the rear sight opening.

On my LP1 I use the 5mm front sight and have the rear blades opened to .169 inches or 4.29mm. Not that that means anything to anyone else its just the combination that works for my eye.

The most important thing is to come up something that you can consistently duplicate shot after shot.

LeeU wrote: If you said sub 6 O'Clock please explain where you would hold on a 10M target. Give me specifics where you would hold. What rings are we talking about. Thanking you all in advance for your help to a novice. thanks again Lee

Perhaps you are missing the point about the 'sub-6 hold' on a precision ISSF target. There is no specific point, ring, whatever!

The sub-6 hold has a lot going for it;
- the sights are outlined against the light area of the target,
- there is (should be!) no 'point' to aim at - the shooter has to aim at an 'area', being 'somewhere' around halway across the target and 'somewhere' between the bottom of the black and the bottom of the card.

While this might sound extremely inaccurate, it uses the body's natural ability to 'centre' - and this is a remarkably accurate mechanism. You do not drive down your lane of a multi-line road by trying to keep the car between the lane markings wher the car is (if you tried, you would find yourself weaving all over the lane), you let your body's 'centering' abilty take over.

Not having a 'specific' to aim at will help you keep the front sight in focus - having a 'specific' on the target will draw your focus to the target (and you CANNOT focus on both).

The 'aim' WILL wander around when you use either center or sub-6 (aim not 'hold', though we all have gotten accustomed to the misnaming). The skill comes with minimising this wandering, and this comes from (EFFECTIVE) training, condition, and mental application.

One advantage of the sub-6 hold is that there is no 'perfect' point to aim at, reducug the natural desire to get the shot off when it all looks 'perfect' and snatching at the trigger. instead of gadually adding trigger pressure past the point where the shot is released.

Hope this helps,

Spencer

LeeU wrote:If you said sub 6 O'Clock please explain where you would hold on a 10M target. Give me specifics where you would hold. What rings are we talking about.

I use a sub 6 o'clock hold but haven't got the faintest idea what ring is the centre of my holding area. I just hold in an area that is comfortable for me.

Judging from the way that other people shoot the top of the target when using my pistol I suppose that I must hold extremely low. I have also had to fit a packer under the rear sight and use a low front sight on my 162EI.

If you want to use a sub 6 hold then don't try to be specific about an aiming point.

LeeU,
Perhaps you asked the wrong people about their sight picture, when you asked for response from the "premire shooters".

I am not one of them, but I have asked the same question of a person that I respect as a shooter.

No one that succesuflly uses a deep sub six will, or can tell you exactly where they place the sights on the target when using that hold hold.

If you have a background in hunting and/or precision rifle you may have trouble shooting with the deep sub six. Because you will have been taught and further proven the need for a precision hold on a specific spot. There is no trust to the force in Bench rest. At least most folks go to great lenghts and expense to elimate the need for shots taken of faith alone.

10 m pistol does not relate to hunting or the general common thoughts on precision aiming.

I tried the sub six sight picture. I could not get it to work for me for a long time. I finally did get to like the picture, and did fairly well, when I could clear my mind and actually forget about hitting a 10. Just make the sight picture stay as steady as possible, and pull the trigger through and believe that you will shoot a 10 if you do everything right. Kind of a Star Wars, "Trust the Force Luke" thing.

I am kinda hard headed and it took me about three months, of shooting daily, to get to the point of understanding. To the point where i could not tell you EXACTLY, where to hold the front sight on the target.

I also gave the center hold a try. I was less satisfied with the results than with the six o'clock, or sub six. There is just so much you can do to hold steady off hand. and the center hold really points this out.

I tried the above different hold with at least four 10 m air pistols at once. I stuck with it for about 90 days each, keeping records of each shooting session and the results. The results showed what I expected. There is no clear cut answere. I shoot a Pardini K-60 with very narrow rear sights, kind of a go/no go. you got light on each side of the front sight it's a go, and if not correct. The sight picture I shoot on this pistol is equal light on top and sides. My Steyr LP-1 a sub six, but not real deep. I know the picture when I see it. FWB 103 Six o'clock. Morini CM162 EI sub six but not a deep one.

My improvement is scores is slow. Partly because I choose to shoot different pstols. I have found pleasure in air pistol silhouette. Have to adjust the sights on any 10 m pistol that I shoot to do this. I no longer frar turning the sight adjustments anytime I feel a pattern is becoming apparent that might justify that re-adjustment. Even if the last time I shot that pistol, I was doing good. If I need to change the sights I'll do it even though my records show that the last time I used the pistol, I did well. If something has changed, and it is usally the shooter, never fear making adjustments.

Further complicating the matter is good pistol days and bad pistol days. You will have them. On a good day, you may feel invincable. Feel that you have arrived. On a bad pistol day, you can spend the day looking for problems and that just creates a problem that crerates another and so on and so forth. On a bad pistol day work on one aspect of the act of shooting. But keep shooting. You will leearn something. On a good pistol day, be thankful, and pay attention to all that you do right.

The above are the opinions of this shooter. They cannot be backed up by stellar performance. I can however, due to record keeping, and knowing my average scores, note improvement and the opposite when it is present.

Respectfully,
Dan Hankins
A beginner in perpetuity

I wish to offer yet another perspective. I am 72 and have corrected short sight, combined with blood clots in both eyes: causing refractive errors. I can focus well on the sights (LP5) but have real trouble in determining when I have the foresight at the correct height on the target - which appears distorted. The centre hold is impossible. The sub-six is better. But the best is obtained by aligning the foresight with the bottom edge of the target card. The card bottom edge gives a really strong elevation signal.
I can see real objections to using this technique in competion because it relies, obviously, on the 10 being uniformly distant from the bottom edge. The batch of cards with which I practice meet that need.
Curiously no such sighting problem exists with my lateral positioning. I think this may be because the alignment signal in this horizontal direction is stronger than that in the vertical direction.
My scores are nothing to get excited about but I can usually hold the 10 metre, 8 ring laterally.
ben, UK

Hi,
If I may suggest using the back of the target, nothing but sights to think about. You will learn faster that way. Later it becomes a natural habit to use the sub six hold.

Regards and a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you all.
Kent

To me one of the things about the sub six hold is that it's what feels comfortable for you visually - i.e. the amount of light perceived 'feels' correct. The other good aspect is that because you are in an open area, you shouldn't be over critical and try for a perfect sight picture. Aiming right on the black/white intersect over emphasises the movement of the gun and it is easy to try for the perfect, steady hold (which you will very rarely get).

The sub six aim makes the sight picture look OK even with some gun movement but that is fine because the ten ring isn't all that tiny and movements are acceptable. I would say the wide rear sight is fine for the same reason. In the end most shooters will find that sub six and a reasonably wide rearsight will give them the best scores. Practice and familiarity with the sight picture will lead to some very precise shots (when it all goes right of course).

Rob.

The debate about this topic will never end.
The reason is probably that while a 6 o´clock hold bring optimum results for many shooters, a center hold is used by a few, but then very good marksmen.

In free pistol 50 m shooting, a sub 6 o´clock aiming "area" is common. Some even aim at the bottom edge of the target card/frame.
A couple of russian free pistol champions years back aimed at the UPPER edge of the target card! And they achived some very respectable scores!

The center hold is more common by rapid fire, at larger targets, or where the sighting black (the bull) is larger.
Some advice that an unusual wide front blade to be used when aiming at the center.

Some even advice that a center hold might be beneficial even for slow fire. But then with a blade wider than the apparent width of the black bull intalled.

The very wide blade gives the benefit of a relaxing, steady sight picture.
Variable light conditions, as when a cloud occasionally abscures the sunlight, is known to displace the point of impact by free pistol shooting. Mostly vertical, but also often with some lateral displacement. Bright light lifts the point of impact, relative to thooting in "shadow".
A center hold with a wide blade reduces this effect.

Marksmen within the former "Eastern Block" experimented a lot with sight equipment and different aiming points.
I will encourage more shooters to try the different techniques.

Key points that I see are

quotes from posts

"I use a sub 6 o'clock hold but haven't got the faintest idea what ring is the centre of my holding area. I just hold in an area that is comfortable for me. "

"Not having a 'specific' to aim at will help you keep the front sight in focus - having a 'specific' on the target will draw your focus to the target (and you CANNOT focus on both). "

"One advantage of the sub-6 hold is that there is no 'perfect' point to aim at, reducing the natural desire to get the shot off when it all looks 'perfect' and snatching at the trigger. instead of gradually adding trigger pressure past the point where the shot is released. "

"No one that successfully uses a deep sub six will, or can tell you exactly where they place the sights on the target when using that hold.

" there is (should be!) no 'point' to aim at - the shooter has to aim at an 'area', being 'somewhere' around halfway across the target and 'somewhere' between the bottom of the black and the bottom of the card.

While this might sound extremely inaccurate, it uses the body's natural ability to 'centre' - and this is a remarkably accurate mechanism. "


New shooters usually have a problem with accepting these ideas. They think you MUST aim at a specific spot.
Accept the wobble [ practice and training reduces this but does not eliminate it ] and concentrate on just sight alignment and trigger control. The mind can usually concentrate only on one thing at a time. Pistol shooting requires you to only? align sights perfectly and squeeze the trigger, two things. Don't bring a third thing [what spot to aim at] into it and compound the problems
The trigger control comes with practice, practice, practice. and eventually you can develop the constant 'squeeze' of the trigger subconsously and reduce the concentration to the one thing, sight alignment

just my thoughts

I don't find that newbies have any problems at all aiming below the black. I always point out that you can't see black sights on a black background very well. I know that isn't strickly true as I centre aim for rapid and sport pistol, but it easily gets the message home. You are right though in that shooters need to experiment and see what best suits them as we are all different.

Rob.