TargetTalk

In my spare time I have been trying to get a precision shooting program going in the DFW area. To my surprise there are very few programs going at the beginner level but I suspect that statement may get me in hot water so let me continue. I am looking to stimulate a general constructive discussion and do not wish to create a fire storm.

The following youth programs exist in various levels of activity across the country.

CMP
NRA
USAS
4-H
Jaycees
American Legion
Boy Scouts-Adventure
JROTC
Private local club programs
More I am sure

In my region I would have to say JROTC is the healthiest and 4-H is close behind. My personal experience is each and every group has their own agenda. JROTC has a military orientation which for some youth/parents can be a negative. Boy Scouts is limited to boys which makes them exclusive to 50% of the population. 4-H is non military, non exclusive but their focus ranges from animal husbandry to shooting to cooking.

Barriers: Safety and legal exposure. Let's face it, in today's litigious America a lot of these organizations are a bit "closed" due to risk. The major challenge I have faced is finding a range not funding as first thought. ROTC ranges are open to ROTC only. Private clubs you have to join, although I believe I have found a solution and open minded club after two years of searching. But sadly, barriers do exist.

Shooting sports is not like Little League or Soccer programs where there is a fairly clear path. Show up with cleats and a ball at any age and the system will create a healthy environment for youth to discover their interests and skills. For some they learn team work and social skills. For a smaller group they refine their God given physical skills. But for shooting sports I would have to say our system is not as effective.

These groups who struggle for funding from the same sources (FoNRA, CMP, State Organizations, USAS etc) often work to the exclusion of one another. To my way of thinking that is a lost opportunity but perhaps there are good reasons for this. I'll agree, having a beginner show up at an advanced JROTC event is sub-optimal. But in Little League we somehow all use the same fields don't we?

My point, well, I don't have one. I just wanted to invite the more experienced youth leaders to chime in and contribute their wisdom. I will continue to work with every and all programs/clubs out there. Our mission should be to grow the pie, not divide the pie which in my market is down to 1/100th of a slice and there just ain't nothin left to divide.

I look forward to hearing what others have to say and in no way do I mean to offend those dedicated volunteers in any one program. I hope I made that perfectly clear. My goal is to have kids discover the fun of competitive shooting as a sport. If done right at a minimum they have learned a life long hobby. At a maximum we might find more Matt Emmons.

Respectfully submitted,

Jud Durant
Plano, TX
Collin County 4-H Field & Stream Club

If I have hit any hot buttons or if you would simply like to contact me off line I can be reached at durantjud@yahoo.com

You bring up some good points. There is a way to get 100% of the genders (that's boys AND girls, y'all :^) in Boy Scouts - charter as a Venture Crew (used to be Explorer Post). Venturing is the co-ed, teenage division of Boy Scouts. Each crew can have a specialty, or remain general interest, doing what the kids and leaders agree upon. A valid specialty for Venture Crews is "Guns/Marksmanship". There are Crew junior rifle clubs around the USA. 2 advantages are that you are covered under Scout insurance, and if your Council does interest surveys in the high schools, you can find kids with an expressed interest in the sport. Talk to your local Scout council.

Hi Durant7

I think you may be selling 4-H a bit short especially in Texas. The Texas 4-H Shooting Sport program is one of the best. I would suggest you contact Ron Howard to get started.

The two barriers you mentioned of safety and liability are addressed thoroughly by the 4-H program.

When you say you have been trying to get a precision program started, what steps have you taken so far?

durant7 wrote:In my spare time I have been trying to get a precision shooting program going in the DFW area. To my surprise there are very few programs going at the beginner level but I suspect that statement may get me in hot water so let me continue. I am looking to stimulate a general constructive discussion and do not wish to create a fire storm.

The following youth programs exist in various levels of activity across the country.

CMP
NRA
USAS
4-H
Jaycees
American Legion
Boy Scouts-Adventure
JROTC
Private local club programs
More I am sure

In my region I would have to say JROTC is the healthiest and 4-H is close behind. My personal experience is each and every group has their own agenda. JROTC has a military orientation which for some youth/parents can be a negative. Boy Scouts is limited to boys which makes them exclusive to 50% of the population. 4-H is non military, non exclusive but their focus ranges from animal husbandry to shooting to cooking.

Barriers: Safety and legal exposure. Let's face it, in today's litigious America a lot of these organizations are a bit "closed" due to risk. The major challenge I have faced is finding a range not funding as first thought. ROTC ranges are open to ROTC only. Private clubs you have to join, although I believe I have found a solution and open minded club after two years of searching. But sadly, barriers do exist.

Shooting sports is not like Little League or Soccer programs where there is a fairly clear path. Show up with cleats and a ball at any age and the system will create a healthy environment for youth to discover their interests and skills. For some they learn team work and social skills. For a smaller group they refine their God given physical skills. But for shooting sports I would have to say our system is not as effective.

These groups who struggle for funding from the same sources (FoNRA, CMP, State Organizations, USAS etc) often work to the exclusion of one another. To my way of thinking that is a lost opportunity but perhaps there are good reasons for this. I'll agree, having a beginner show up at an advanced JROTC event is sub-optimal. But in Little League we somehow all use the same fields don't we?

My point, well, I don't have one. I just wanted to invite the more experienced youth leaders to chime in and contribute their wisdom. I will continue to work with every and all programs/clubs out there. Our mission should be to grow the pie, not divide the pie which in my market is down to 1/100th of a slice and there just ain't nothin left to divide.

I look forward to hearing what others have to say and in no way do I mean to offend those dedicated volunteers in any one program. I hope I made that perfectly clear. My goal is to have kids discover the fun of competitive shooting as a sport. If done right at a minimum they have learned a life long hobby. At a maximum we might find more Matt Emmons.

Respectfully submitted,

Jud Durant
Plano, TX
Collin County 4-H Field & Stream Club

If I have hit any hot buttons or if you would simply like to contact me off line I can be reached at durantjud@yahoo.com

Hi

I teach in Kansas 4-H. One of our families has been to the Nationals twice, and said that Texas 4-H is the best 4-H Shooting sports program in the country. Texas is one of the few states that has all of the 4-H Shooting sports teams: 1. Air Rifle; 2. Air Pistol; 3. Smallbore Rifle; 4. Smallbore Pistol; 5. Archery; 6. Shotgun; and 7. Hunting.

Kansas didn't have Archery this year, and we've never had hunting.

Our 4-H Shotgun is really good this year. 50 shots at 16 yard line, 50 shots at the 20. A 96 came in first, a 94 came in 5th, FIFTH. I expected a couple of our boys to clean it though.

Mike
Wichita KS

Hi Mike

Texas has a couple things going in their favor. The state has always been gun friendly, they have 20+ million population, and they have Ron Howard.

The good thing for the rest of us is that Texas has laid out a good groundwork for us to use, copy or modify to fit the needs of the state.

Keep up the good work, 94 out of 100 means you fellows are doing something right ;~)

mikeschroeder wrote:Hi


I teach in Kansas 4-H. One of our families has been to the Nationals twice, and said that Texas 4-H is the best 4-H Shooting sports program in the country. Texas is one of the few states that has all of the 4-H Shooting sports teams: 1. Air Rifle; 2. Air Pistol; 3. Smallbore Rifle; 4. Smallbore Pistol; 5. Archery; 6. Shotgun; and 7. Hunting.

Kansas didn't have Archery this year, and we've never had hunting.

Our 4-H Shotgun is really good this year. 50 shots at 16 yard line, 50 shots at the 20. A 96 came in first, a 94 came in 5th, FIFTH. I expected a couple of our boys to clean it though.

Mike
Wichita KS

Thanks for the input. It seems it leaned too much to the "which is best" or which is "not so good" which is NOT my intent. In fact the last two years I've been engaged in getting a 4H shooting sports program started in the DFW area. Yes, Houston, Austin, San Antonio, Humble, Brenham there are some GREAT programs of which many have headed to CO Springs. But in DFW....shotgun is strong but as of yet no precision shooting. I'm working on it.

My point really was how to coordinate the efforts so all groups are working in concert. I was talking with Martin Edmondson on another matter and he advised me of something I did not realize and frankly solves the very issue I raised. Somewhere I got the impression PTOs are for Precision only and Sporter is not permitted since USAS does not sanction Sporter. WRONG and thank goodness he is such gentlman! USAS is THE sanctioning body behind Sporter that ALL organizations recogized (except NRA) so you can have all the kids working toward the same goal, same rules. That was not clear to me.

I also spent sometime on the "shooters lounge" and read with interest Yogi's post on Sporter and whether it contributes to the "real deal" precision. Interesting thread but for now I will put all my/our energy behind Sporter, Pistol and BB guns to create future shooters. I'm going to ask to have Sporter added to local PTOs in an effort to expose kids to competition.

As always, help me fill in the holes.

I'll agree on the usefullness of BSA Venture Crew. You can use it in a high school because the council will offer to write an addtional rider on the insurance to cover the school, at least they did for me in Middle TN. The student survey is a good recruiting tool--ask the District Executive for it.

On the other hand, JROTC is the predominant vehicle in TN. It appears that 4-H is very dependent on the interest of the individual county extension agent. If marksmanship is not a priority of his, then the state headquarters won't pressure him to do it and it won't happen. It appears pressure must come from parents or students.

durant7 wrote:In my spare time I have been trying to get a precision shooting program going in the DFW area. To my surprise there are very few programs going at the beginner level but I suspect that statement may get me in hot water so let me continue. I am looking to stimulate a general constructive discussion and do not wish to create a fire storm.

The following youth programs exist in various levels of activity across the country.

CMP
NRA
USAS
4-H
Jaycees
American Legion
Boy Scouts-Adventure
JROTC
Private local club programs
More I am sure

In my region I would have to say JROTC is the healthiest and 4-H is close behind. My personal experience is each and every group has their own agenda. JROTC has a military orientation which for some youth/parents can be a negative. Boy Scouts is limited to boys which makes them exclusive to 50% of the population. 4-H is non military, non exclusive but their focus ranges from animal husbandry to shooting to cooking.

Barriers: Safety and legal exposure. Let's face it, in today's litigious America a lot of these organizations are a bit "closed" due to risk. The major challenge I have faced is finding a range not funding as first thought.

ROTC ranges are open to ROTC only.

Private clubs you have to join, although I believe I have found a solution and open minded club after two years of searching. But sadly, barriers do exist.

Shooting sports is not like Little League or Soccer programs where there is a fairly clear path.

Show up with cleats and a ball at any age and the system will create a healthy environment for youth to discover their interests and skills. For some they learn team work and social skills. For a smaller group they refine their God given physical skills. But for shooting sports I would have to say our system is not as effective.

These groups who struggle for funding from the same sources (FoNRA, CMP, State Organizations, USAS etc) often work to the exclusion of one another. To my way of thinking that is a lost opportunity but perhaps there are good reasons for this. I'll agree, having a beginner show up at an advanced JROTC event is sub-optimal.

But in Little League we somehow all use the same fields don't we?

My point, well, I don't have one. I just wanted to invite the more experienced youth leaders to chime in and contribute their wisdom. I will continue to work with every and all programs/clubs out there. Our mission should be to grow the pie, not divide the pie which in my market is down to 1/100th of a slice and there just ain't nothin left to divide.

I look forward to hearing what others have to say and in no way do I mean to offend those dedicated volunteers in any one program. I hope I made that perfectly clear. My goal is to have kids discover the fun of competitive shooting as a sport. If done right at a minimum they have learned a life long hobby. At a maximum we might find more Matt Emmons.

Respectfully submitted,

Jud Durant
Plano, TX
Collin County 4-H Field & Stream Club

If I have hit any hot buttons or if you would simply like to contact me off line I can be reached at durantjud@yahoo.com

**********************************************************
Well Jud, You hit three specific "Hot Buttons" with me. I applaud your enthusiasm and desire to get more for your Young Athletes, but there are a couple of facts that you need to consider.

1. Ranges in Schools belong to the School, not the ROTC. In fact, seldom does the JROTC pay one penny towards range construction or upkeep. They used to build some ranges (smallbore) but not for a while. It's a Varsity Sport here in Georgia, and therefore, any kid in Georgia can join a Rifle Team in their School. Now, I'll be the first to tell you that some JROTC Instructors have a problem with that, but the law is the law. Go tell some young female that she can't kick for a football team of play second base for the baseball team... It's a Varsity Sport.

2. We (here at Spalding Co Shooting Sports / Georgia 4H) do have a very specific path to move a youngster from BB, to Sporter, to Precision, to Rimfire .22 Sporter, to International Smallbore, possibly High Power if they aren't going to a College Rifle Team and finally to College for that group of Shooting Athletes. I'll be glad to email you something on that in a separate message.

3. Invitational... Be it JROTC, 4H, PTOs, American Legion, etc... Have a way for your kids to be able to compete in those matches, or get the Match Organizer to have a category "Open" or other to get more shooters involved.

Not trying to be a smart@$&, but we have to think out of the box to create opportunity.

Roy McClain
Spalding Co Shooting Sports
EODTNT1@aol.com (678) 772-8185 cell

"If your plan is for one year, plant rice.
If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
If your plan is for one hundred years,
educate children." -- Confucius

Ray, a coach wrote:I'll agree on the usefullness of BSA Venture Crew. You can use it in a high school because the council will offer to write an addtional rider on the insurance to cover the school, at least they did for me in Middle TN. The student survey is a good recruiting tool--ask the District Executive for it.

On the other hand, JROTC is the predominant vehicle in TN. It appears that 4-H is very dependent on the interest of the individual county extension agent. If marksmanship is not a priority of his, then the state headquarters won't pressure him to do it and it won't happen. It appears pressure must come from parents or students.

Hi

If you go the route of the BSA Venturing Crew, get an established Chartering Organization, hopefully a large gun club or sporting goods store. Boy Scouts does everything through the Chartered Organization. The CO is usually a church, but can be any other private organization. DO NOT use a school. It gives you somewhere to store the money so that the professional scouters don't get it.

I agree with you on the 4-H fortunately, ours leaves us alone because we're one of his largest groups. That's true of any organization though.

Mike

Thats an X-Ring Ray!

The push needs to come from those who want to do the activity. Even the left understands they lost the gun control issue which is why we see them posing with guns at election time. We need more places to shoot. With air guns any gym, classroom or open area can be a "shooting range". It need not be expensive it just needs to happen.

Ray, a coach wrote:I'll agree on the usefullness of BSA Venture Crew. You can use it in a high school because the council will offer to write an addtional rider on the insurance to cover the school, at least they did for me in Middle TN. The student survey is a good recruiting tool--ask the District Executive for it.

On the other hand, JROTC is the predominant vehicle in TN. It appears that 4-H is very dependent on the interest of the individual county extension agent. If marksmanship is not a priority of his, then the state headquarters won't pressure him to do it and it won't happen. It appears pressure must come from parents or students.

Although my family is fairly new to the 4-H program here in New Mexico, I do see that as most folks here know, parental involvement in the activity is the key to its success or failure.

When parents feel that the activity is another form of babysitting, it will fail.

I've taken over the 3-P air for the county this year, and the parents we have involved are great helps

I've been shooting in the 4-H program for about 7 years and its really great.
Did a year of air rifle then about 6 years of archery then i thought id give pistol a try... Giving pistol a try got me in a tight spot, love it so much im looking to get my own pistol. Even got a range set up in the kitchen/livingroom!