TargetTalk

Hi,

I am looking at buying a standard 0.22, but wouldn't mind using it for other events.

After looking at the MG2, MP90, KSP200, IZH-35M, SP20, Tesro.....etc. I have narrowed my list down to two guns I would really like to get a look at, and ultimately purchace.

The Pardini SP (which seems quite common and popular), and the Feinwerkbau AW93 (which seems quite popular, but less common).

Does anyone have any comments on these two pistols, or better yet has anyone handeled/fired them both. I am insterested in any information/experience I can hear about them, such as ballance, ease of take down, feel...etc.

The one thing I am particuarly interested in, is they both have recoil reduction systems, with the FWB being quite elaborate. Which gun produces the nicest felt recoil, or controlls recoil better?

Well I better stop writing or noone will read right to the end...lol

Thanks in advance.

Ahhh – this old chestnut…

Ok - here is my utterly biased opinion - mainly because I own a FWB AW93 and love it, and my experience with the Pardini SP is limited. In terms the SP, I have probably not put more than two or three hundred rounds through one. With its magazine forward of the trigger, the SP is slightly more front heavy, though not anywhere near as front -heavy as a Walther GSP (the Pardini frame is aluminium unlike the GSP which is steel). Actually to put it another way, it’s not so much “front heavy” as “front biased”.

There are a few people who have had problems with their SP's which do seem to have reliability problems in a few examples after moderate use with bits wearing out faster than one might expect. It also seems to be much more fussy about what ammo you feed it where as my AW93 seems to eat almost everything it is fed without complaining. There have also been some more serious issues with the early examples of the .32 version which was based on the same frame (frames cracking). The AW93 costs a fair bit more than the Pardini SP but in terms of materials and workmanship, I think you are getting what you pay for.

The SP has a "crisper" recoil than the AW93 which is softer so recovery time in rapid strings is probably slightly faster with the SP, though for precision fire or 20 second strings this is largely irrelevant. In saying that, I have recently started to experiment with my AW93 by adjusting the two adjustment screws which are at the front of the floating barrel weight. By screwing them in all the way as far as they will go, the recoil seems to crispen up quite nicely and it is easy to control and very predictable. The AW93 recoil reduction system is not as complex as it first seems. There is a larger central "piston" or buffer, and the two smaller adjustment screws mentioned above which control two smaller recoil reduction springs. Also there is the moving weight itself - the inertia of which would help soak up a fair degree of the "shock". It really is quite ingenious. I have also found the AW93 to be utterly reliable and FWB have a good reputation of quality control. The standard of the machining and finishing of the steel (no aluminium in the AW93) is very high (hey - it is German after all...).

The AW93 trigger is great, though it takes a bit to set up. Almost every aspect of it can be adjusted and the settings seem to stay put. Trigger settings behave as the manual says they should – unlike my experience with a FAS and a Hammerli SP20 when some weird things started happening when doing trigger adjustments. I’ve never played with a Pardini SP trigger so can’t comment on that.

Some (including myself) have found the AW93 factory grip to be a bit of a dog, which is a shame because it is so beautifully made. I put a Karl Nill grip on mine and it made a huge improvement. If your pistol is "ordered" (i.e. not purchased from shop stock), FWB will actually sell the pistol without their factory grip for a saving of about 90 Euro which would go a long way toward getting a Nill (distributed in Aussie by Hermann's Guns and easily obtainable). The SP factory grip is much nicer in this regard and the example I tried fitted my hand very well.

The AW93 having its magazine in the grip has a barrel which is about 30mm longer than the SP - whether that improves accuracy is up for debate. It also means that the weight is very evenly distributed. I remember picking up an AW93 for the first time - it was amazing - it just seems to "hang" in the air. It is also about 100 grams heavier than the SP (probably in part because of the use of steel) but this is "good" weight.

The most obvious advice is to try them both out if you can – and not just a few rounds, but at least a hundred through each pistol and talk to as many owners as you can. They are both very fine pistols, but I’m very happy with my choice.

Now I’ll leave it to an SP owner to rave about its merits.

Regards from across the ditch (NZ)

FD

Fortitudo,

Thanks for your reply. I'm glad you mentioned quality as well, as I know pardini likes to market thier pistols as economical, and have always wondered if that really means that they are a little less stringent on their overall quality (but they are italian, so I'd still expect good quality). Getting a high quality, well made gun is quite importaint to me, and something I probably would be willing to outlay an extra $300-400 for.

I think you pretty much answered all of my queries. There is just one other thing I wasn't sure about though, how does dry firing work on the AW93, is it just the usual deal of inserting the dry fire plug, and recocking for each shot.

I definatly hear what you say about holding each gun, as I know that this will be the decision maker. I just have to find somewhere in Perth where I can get a look at both guns....

Well thanks again, and BTW biased opinions are the greatest, so long as they are justified.

Cheers.

Verbal wrote:how does dry firing work on the AW93, is it just the usual deal of inserting the dry fire plug, and recocking for each shot?

Yup - just re-cock by racking the slide, but without a plug. The AW93 is designed in such a way that the firing pin cannot physically touch the breech face when dry-firing - it simply isn't long enough. Actually the manual specifically states (in loud bold type no less) that no dry-fire plug be used, so FWB must be pretty confident in this matter. The pistol does come with a red hard-plastic chamber insert flag which some people mistake for a dry-fire plug. Actually it is an indicator to the user (and the RO) that nothing other than the insert is chambered. I believe that the Sport Shooting federations of a couple European countries insist that shooters use these indicator flags, so that's why it is included. You can see it in the photo's of the AW93 on Don Nygord's website (under ".22 Pistols). http://www.nygord-precision.com

I have owned both guns. The Pardini I owned was before the upgrades to the weight in the front of the barrel so I cannot comment on that version of the gun.
Basically Fortitudo has described them both pretty well. Both the Pardini and the Feinwerkbau for me were very reliable, but the feinwerkbau has been almost perfect for reliability.
In my opinion the Pardini is more comfortable and has a better fitting grip and points very well. The trigger is also able to adjust out most of the first stage as compared to the Feinwerkbau which must have travel in the first stage for proper function.
The Feinwerkbau is for me a much better balanced gun with a much better trigger that can be adjusted to have as much creep or roll that you would ever want or be as crisp as glass.
For me, my slow fire was better with the Pardini, but Timed and Rapid is much better with the Feinwerkbau.
There may be another pistol for you to consider; the new Walther that will be coming out very soon. If it has the reliability of the GSP it will be in my gun box too.

Fortitudo,

I had actually stumbled accross Don Nygords site previously and wondered what that red thing was, I gues that explains it. The thing that I found interesing in that there is a much bigger price difference between the FWB and the Pardini in the US, than there is in Australia.

Walter,

I hadn't heard about the new walther comming out, but I would be very interest to learn more about it. I was wondering when they were going to replace the GSP, that design must be going on 30 years old now.

There is one other gun (that is also still easily obtainable in Australia) that i think I really overlooked. That is the Morini CM22. It's only about $100 more expensive than the Pardini, and seems to have a good reputation.

Well thanks guys, and I guess I will keep researching, and surveying the gun shops.

The new Walther (called the SSP, though that may not be its final name) is only at a prototype stage. There is no release date (or even an official confirmation that the thing exists). Someone may have seen one at the Olympics and some design graphics have been posted to Target Talk via the Oslo Pistol Club in Norway where someone managed to get a copy from somewhere. It could be a great gun, but I wouldn’t hang about unless you want to wait another 6 - 12 months +.
With a top feeding magazine, it resembles a FAS 603 / 607.
http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?t=9181

The Morini CM .22 is meant to be quite good, but hasn't exactly taken the world by storm. The .32 version has had problems and its current production status is a bit grey. The original CM .22 had a steel frame and it had a reputation for being one of the most front-heavy standard pistols in production. They now also offer a version with an aluminium frame which helps in that respect.
http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?t=8095

Seems rather interesting, it may be out by the time I can buy it, as I am still about 6 months away from finishing my probationary period before I can even lodge an application for my licence.....due to the second wave of Australian gun laws....

I am still thinking the SP may be my choice, as it is already pushing the bounds of what I can afford, especially considering I was originally going to buy a Browning Buckmark.

Actually Cesare Morini's new gun the MG2 looks much more interesting than the CM22.....as usual Australia probably wont get them for another 10 years (but it will probably be before we can drink the tap water).

Hey,
I've been using a Pardini SP (and K2 air) for a few years and have found it to be great in all respects. It is a natural pointer, has a great trigger which can be adjusted to many different tastes, and is extremely accurate and reliable. It happily eats everything (eley, SK, Federal, cci, Aguila, Lapua, RWS, Remington....) and delivers very tight groups. In fact, I have often used it informally on the 25 yd. and 50ft. free pistol course where it has done surprisingly well.
As an ardent believer in the virtues of steel, I nonetheless have complete faith in the Pardini. The alloy frame is not subject to stress by recoil or friction from reciprocating parts, as a pistol with a Browning type slide and rail system. The barrel functions as the guide rod and forward stop for the bolt. The rearward motion of the bolt is amply taken care of by the recoil spring. All moving parts in the operation are steel. The frame simply contains the parts. Every part attached to the frame uses a steel pin (fire control: trigger, hammer, sear, etc.) or steel threaded insert (Barrel weight, hold open, etc.) I have disassembled it enough to confirm that the only wear I see on the frame is a slight rubbing on the interior finish from the bolt. Remember, the same basic gun is also chambered in .32, so don't worry about its ability to stand up to the 22LR. The design and workmanship is what counts.
By the way, the weight system in the front is great. It not only allows subtle adjustment of balance, it uses springs with the weights to effectively control muzzle lift and aid recovery. The low bore line provided by the forward magazine nicely compliments this virtue.
PS: none of my comments are meant to disparage the other fine pistols mentioned throughout this thread. :-)

Dylan,

I've read this post and replies with great interest and having settled on the MG2 I thought since YOU brought it up I'd add my two cents so to speak.
I've never shot either of these two SPs, but I have shot enough Feinwerkbaus and Pardinis to know that they are both great .22's. But sometimes the intangibles are what will make you happy with your purchase. I too was intrigued by the MG2's design and I couldn't see anyway I was going to get to hold all of the new SPs anytime soon little less shoot them, I went with my gut reaction after talking to Don Nygord and e-mails to Matchguns.
If you read the post "Impressions MG2" you can read my experiences. Since then I have had a malfunction where the hammer followed the slide forward, but in all fairness I had over a thousand rounds through the gun between cleanings. I've shot several(3) NRA 900s and several Gallery Corses(300s) without a hiccup.
Though the MG2 is the softest recoiling .22LR i've ever shot I plan to start trying to soften it somemore with different springs, added/different weights. and added buffers. I'll keep everyone(those interested) posted.
Alex

Hi TargetTalkers,

I'm looking at purchasing a new standard/sport pistol. Here in Canada there are very few "good" SP's on the used market, so I'm looking at a new one. At the moment the race seems to be between the AW93 and the MG2. I've spoken to a couple of MG2 shooters who are very pleased with this pistol. Unfortunately I don't know anybody with an AW93.

This is kind of a fishing expedition to find out about the performance of the AW93. Please share with me your experiences, both good and bad. As I'll be using this pistol also for the new Rapid Fire game I'd sure appreciate reading your opinions on the suitability of the AW93 for this application.

As always, thanks for your kind and generous sharing of info!

For the rapid fire game, the trigger is the problem with the Feinwerkbau.
It's very hard to shoot the 4 second string with a 2 stage trigger and because the FWB needs first stage travel to operate properly, it isn't very good for that game.
I tried it and it was a dismal failure; although it's also the only standard pistol I tried it with so it's possible that it would be just fine for someone else. Otherwise, the AW93 is a superbly made beautiful weapon.
Rapid fire is a fun game. It's very funny when you or your friend miss the last target.

Alex,

Thanks for your input on the MG2. I was concerned that being a ndew design the gun may have a few problems (this is also my concern with the Tesro), and that I will wait for other buyers to discover these problems. However any problems with the MG2 have appeared to be minor, and even people who have sent thier guns back for repair/refund still say they are a great gun.

It's nice to hear that the recoil reduction system works well, as this really makes it worth a look (and just purely out of curiosity to see how it works).

As far as pointability, and feel goes, how are they? They look like they would be very stable in the shooters hand, as the bore sits very low, and the pistol is quite short.

Well cheers for the response, and let us know how your modifucations go.

Cheers.

Verbal - you asked a question about pointability of the MG-2. I obviously don't own an MG-2 so am no expert on the subject, but have had one in my hand. And it felt fantastic! Feels like a high-end air pistol. On the pointability front, I'm not sure if other guns offer this advantage or not, but the MG-2 allows for grip angles to be adjusted in much the same manner as the LP1/2/10 air pistol or the MG-1 air pistol. This would allow for adjustment of the pistol to your natural point of aim without having to resort to the dremel or filler material. To my mind this is a significant advantage.

Dylan,
As the post before this states, the MG2 does have adjustments built into the frame.
1.A screw at the top rear of the frame to let out so that the gun has less "droop" or
2.A srew that slides side to side which causes the gun to actually point right or left(as if rotating your grip).
To be honest I like the way mine points so well, I haven't touched them. And the grip is standard Morini which just aids to it's pointability. It really feels great swinging from target to target. Everyone thats held or shot it thinks it's pretty cool.

Hold center,

Alex

Thanks for the comments on the MG2 guys. They seem like quite an innovative gun, and I will certainly make an effort to try and get a look at one (providing someone here actually imports them).

But I think that i now have a nice list of models and expectations to try and complie into a single purchace.....this may be tough, but I guess in the end it's just the gun the feels the best.

Well thanks again everyone, and I wll keep you informed as to what I do purchace, and what my thoughts on it are.

Cheers,
Verbal

Verbal, Victorian Arms in Melbourne are the importers for Matchguns. Get in touch with them!

http://www.viccityarms.com.au

lol, it's funny you mention that site, as I actually found their advet in issue 2 of A&Z Handgun magazine, and had visited their site, just to see if they were seliing any nice second hand guns. But anyway, at the same time I saw they sold the MG2.....a little more expensive than what I thought it would be though.

Actually can someone take a look at this Star Super B, and tell me why it does not look like a 1911, even though it is supposed to be a copy?
http://www.viccityarms.com.au/view.ihtml?mainid=1353. To me it looks like the grip safety is missing, the ejecion port is too far forward, the magazine well is all wrong, and the slide and frame are just the wrong shape. Personally if I was going for a cheap 1911 (which I will be..lol), I'd either be looking at second hand colts, or a new norinco.