TargetTalk

With all of the talk about the expensive rapid-fire bays, I thought I'd pass my take of the situation.
My home club is a 10 bay 50 footer. Bullseye is the main focus, but I've got them shooting a bit of
International. For rapid-fire, we built a couple of portable bays. Quite cheaply actually. The framework's
square steel tubing which hangs from chains. One person can carry it down range and hang it by himself.
The push/pull is operated by electric solenoids/springs. Each bay cost in the neighborhood of $100.00 or
a bit more. One of the guys built the timer, but one of the ones from TargetTimers will do the job too.
Rapidfire bays need not be as expensive as one would think. You just have to be a bit creative and
resourceful. For 6 or 7 hundred dollars, a club could have 2 bays with a timer. I know, for some clubs,
that's a lot of money, but what you're getting is the ability to shoot one of the most fun matches going.
I suppose even if your range is longer than 50', you could make one of these units and place it at 50'.
If anybody's interested, I'd be happy to point you in the right direction in building one.
I don't have the ability/knowlege to post photos of the unit, but could email them if anybody's interested.

R.M.

What is the expected pay back period on covering the costs of building the bays? How many rapid fire events will it take?

R.M. wrote:With all of the talk about the expensive rapid-fire bays, I thought I'd pass my take of the situation.
My home club is a 10 bay 50 footer. Bullseye is the main focus, but I've got them shooting a bit of
International. For rapid-fire, we built a couple of portable bays. Quite cheaply actually. The framework's
square steel tubing which hangs from chains. One person can carry it down range and hang it by himself.
The push/pull is operated by electric solenoids/springs. Each bay cost in the neighborhood of $100.00 or
a bit more. One of the guys built the timer, but one of the ones from TargetTimers will do the job too.
Rapidfire bays need not be as expensive as one would think. You just have to be a bit creative and
resourceful. For 6 or 7 hundred dollars, a club could have 2 bays with a timer. I know, for some clubs,
that's a lot of money, but what you're getting is the ability to shoot one of the most fun matches going.
I suppose even if your range is longer than 50', you could make one of these units and place it at 50'.
If anybody's interested, I'd be happy to point you in the right direction in building one.
I don't have the ability/knowlege to post photos of the unit, but could email them if anybody's interested.

R.M.

How long to pay off the cost of the frames?
Let's assume the upper price R.M. gave for two frames and timer: $700.
Further assume we will run a match a month and that we will get ten participants for each match. To pay off the cost of the frames in a year, each shooter will have to pay 700/(12x10) = $5.84 each match. Hmm, I pay more than that to rent a movie (and given the choice, I'd rather shoot than watch a movie). Seems like a good deal to me!
Now if there is enough interest to run a weekly match, each shooter would only have to contribute 700/(52x10) = $1.35 Even if you could only get four shooters out for a weekly match, it still would cost them only $3.37. Heck, I pay more than that for a coffee-shop mocha cappucino (or is that capuccino?)
Of course, the Rapid Fire bays could also be used for Standard Pistol, Centre Fire, Sport Pistol, and NRA Conventional Pistol - which all benefit from having turning targets.
I've talked myself into it. Bring on the plans.

Warren has graciously offered to post some photo's of our unit when I get some.
Another thing that came to mind was, if you're really on a tight budget, you could switch the targets
manually, without using a controller. It would get you started, or "hooked" as some would say.
I did forget to mention that all labor was free, all dollars are U.S. and other than the welding, they were
totally built in my garage with a hacksaw and hand drill.
I'll try to get the pictures to Warren by the weekend.

R.M.

I'll bet that was one time you were working in your garage with clothes on!

Well, he did say the welding was done elsewhere!!!
Thanks, R.M., I'll look forward to the photos. I, too, have a hacksaw and a drill. I've even got a small welder that might do for 16 or 18 gauge steel tubing.

I can weld, sort of, and have freinds that can weld very well.
I can do the wiring and have friends that are very good with control systems,
I have the Target Timer.

The Details of the electric soleniods is the critical. I was planning on using an air compressor and 4 way pnuematic valves and double action air cylinders but electric soleniod would be much easier!

How fast and what is the stroke?
What current is needed?

Forgive the intrusion and I am not trying to be a wise guy, but---the Rapid Fire event no longer uses turning targets---mebbe you can build the bays and get someone to develop a timing system to turn the red & green lights on and off. The only problem is early and late shot detection, which could be handled by an IPSC type timer. Just a suggestion IMHO.

I guess I am a bit slow, or just dont check this forum enough, because the concept just appeared to me last night.


Pete, were you looking at a purely pneumatic system? or electronically controlled pneumatic solenoids? Only because I find the electric ones tend to grow quite rapidly in their current demands, and as size grows I don't know how goot the reaction time is on the electric ones in the size you are looking at. Either one would work, I wonder which would be simpler for the entire system and more cost effective.

You must also be a paintballer too, it's rare that people think of 4-way pneumatic solenoids and double action rams before they think of electrics or hydraulics.


Also, Bob, is it a rules issue that RF no longer uses turning targets? Or just a matter of overwhelming preference? Is it that the turning aren't legal? Or they are legal, just that the IPSC doesn't generally use them .

-Hans

Unless something has changed, the ISSF rule book still has the rules for turning targets. On the World Cup circuit, electronic targets are probably required. But for local events and training, turning targets appear to be acceptable.

Using lights as the electronics system can be controled by the same timer systems as the turning targets, however, I am not sure the rules cover this. Can you have a hybrid system with both turning targets and Lights?
Dong so is just a matter of the correct wiring.

I purchased a Target Timer and used inexpensive automotive lights to make a simiple system for training with a Steyr LP-5 for Std pistol and CF. (OK, I know the Steyr LP-5 is an air pistol and Std and CF call for other ammo. but this is for TRAINING).

I am not a paintballer, but most every Bullseye range uses a double action air cylinder. The 4-way valve is used to control the air cylinder movement. Most of the Bullseye ranges I have been around have ten to 40 firing positions all moved by one air cylinder. I have seen very nice Caswell systems that use stepper motor by now the price increases greatly.

Stan Pace wrote:The last time I checked, the USAS rules for RF allow the following setups:

1. Turning targets

2. Electronic targets with lights

3. Stationary targets with audible timers (for local matches only)

I don't believe stationary targets with lights are allowed, but it is the best way to train for electronic targets. Perhaps a rule change is in order.

Hans, if your timer can be modified to operate both the lights and microphones, that would be the way to go. The competitors can train getting used to reacting to the light change while the overtime problem can be solved with the microphones and a display. Sounds like a marriage of a Target Timer with an IPSC timer to me.

Stan

Some IPSC timers already have aux. output jacks for lights, horns, etc. Here's an example of one for $150.00. It ought to be perfect for local club use. We don't need to shoot local matches on world class ranges.

http://www.potfire.com.au/products/ced6000.htm

Come to think of it, I think that's the model of timer I have......

Seriously, what would be the most useful would be a foldable target hanger (has the spacing right, but clamps to existing target holders - and folds up to fit in your trunk) with a light setup that a shot timer can turn on/off. I'm not an EE, though, so my expertise does not extend to designing the unit.

Stan Pace wrote:
Hans, if your timer can be modified to operate both the lights and microphones, that would be the way to go. The competitors can train getting used to reacting to the light change while the overtime problem can be solved with the microphones and a display. Sounds like a marriage of a Target Timer with an IPSC timer to me.

Stan

Just to avoid confusion, I wasn't aware until I checked the website.... I am a totally unrelated Hans to the individual that runs the TargetTimers website. But I wonder if those timers can be adapted like that. From what I have seen, those timers can easily be adapted to running either lights or turning targets, just a matter of wiring and possibly a relay here or there. However, I didn't see any information on inputs.

Making it compact and portable is the easy part in my mind. If all you want is something to attach lights to an existing target holder.... that would be quite simple. If you have an existing timer that already has outputs on it, you've got 90% of it already. I'm a rifle guy, so I don't have the required rules available to make up exact plans.

-Hans

I'm a rifle guy, so I don't have the required rules available to make up exact plans.

-Hans[/quote]

At the risk of being repetitive, see http://www.issf-shooting.org/rules/2003 ... 01_4th.pdf , Rule 6.3.17 Standards for 25 m Turning Target Installations

LOL no worries man, good info for all. Taking a peek at it now actually, quite appropriate info here either way.

-Hans

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