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I thought Brian Zens had made the Olympic team for free pistol? I didn't see his name.

I'm not quite sure I understand the logic. I looked at the results posted from the Olympics and Daryl and Jason shot Free pistol for score. Do you mean they were allowed to enter the event because they were already there for Air pistol? That doesn't seem fair. Thanks for a reply.

Barb wrote:I'm not quite sure I understand the logic. I looked at the results posted from the Olympics and Daryl and Jason shot Free pistol for score. Do you mean they were allowed to enter the event because they were already there for Air pistol? That doesn't seem fair. Thanks for a reply.

You might like to read the ISSF Rules For Participation In The Olympics

These are based on the strict limits on participant numbers set by the IOC.

You may not think they are fair but they are the same for everyone.

Barb wrote:I'm not quite sure I understand the logic. I looked at the results posted from the Olympics and Daryl and Jason shot Free pistol for score. Do you mean they were allowed to enter the event because they were already there for Air pistol? That doesn't seem fair. Thanks for a reply.

which Olymics was that? It has been many years since Free Pistol was an Olympic event.

Anonymous wrote:which Olymics was that? It has been many years since Free Pistol was an Olympic event.

Excuse me? It may now be called 50m Pistol but it is still the same event.

I don't see why people think it's not fair that Daryl and Jason were allowed to shoot free. They shot the scores to make the team...end of story.

Mike Douglass

aurorapolice02_11 wrote:I don't see why people think it's not fair that Daryl and Jason were allowed to shoot free. They shot the scores to make the team...end of story.

Mike Douglass

Well Mike, it's not fair, and that is the whole point. The problem is with the way the team is made up (the whole quota system, team limitation thing), which is the result of housing considerations. Maybe if the Olympics weren't so bloated with beach bingo, competitive dating, and professionals, but it is and every country can't send a competitor to each of the events. It's not fair to the US and Brian, or to poorer, smaller countries that have zero chance of earning quota slots. Fair isn't part of the equation. If they're going to play the quota game, then the US should not have been allowed to enter a shooter in free pistol, and if it's open to anyone with a MQS that can get to Athens, then why bother with quotas. Its not fair that the biggest, richest, most powerful countries hog all the lanes. It's the way it is, but it's not fair.

As an aside, it would have been far better for shooting sports and shooting generated revenue in the US if they had found a way to send Brian. Brian is an accomplished conventional pistol shooter and would have generated a lot of interest in that discipline, a discipline that boasts many, many, many more shooters than the more obscure international ones do.

Larry

In the Olympic events the maximum qualification per NOC per event is 2 shooters, except in the Trap, Double Trap and Skeet events for women in which the qualification per country is limited to 1 athlete only.
Each shooter, however, who has been entered in 1 event in a quota place by his/her NOC can be entered as a double starter in other events if he/she has also obtained the Minimum Qualification Scores (MQS) in the other events. NOCs are not allowed to enter more then 2 shooters in any event.

Qualification rules for Shooting

I don't see why you don't think it's fair, your guy didn't shoot a qualifying score (i.e. didn't earn a quota slot in free pistol) so why should he be able to enter ? Sure the others didn't either (as I understand it) but were elligible via acheiving MQS and already being there by virtue of their AP qualifications. In Britain we had no pistol shooters at all but we didn't earn any quota places so we couldn't compete - not great but that's the way the system is so that's what what we have to live with.

Rob.

To achieve an MQS you would be shooting at a continental champs or higher. And in that competition, if you win (and are shooting for the competition, not just MQS) you would generally win a quota place for your country (exception being every other cont champs).

So if the poor country can for example only send 1 shooter to a World Cup, that shooter has just as much chance of winning a quota spot as a rich, affluent country. I guess you could argue that a country that enters three shoooters has three times as much of a chance. In this instance the rich, powerful USA couldn't do it. If the shooter wasn't good enough to win and get the quota spot, it seems fair that he doesn't get to compete at the Olympics. And if there were no quota places won in the event, it only makes sense for those that did win in other events to take up that position as a double starter, better to have 40 shooters in Free than 20 I would think.

What wouldn't be fair would be to start messing around with the already defined selection procedures.

And we all know that the ISSF wouldn't mess with our sports... blinders, pistols, clothing, targets... It seems that a lot of the shooting sports are awfully plastic lately.

Notice that I made no proposal for a fair system. Given the reality and limitations, I doubt that their is a way to do much other than what they are doing now. It would be much better if the free pistol line was filled from free pistol selection rather than whoever happens to already be there, but it ain't happening.

I guess I'm a bit cranked on this since I just sent my USOC survey in. One of the things they asked was which new sport I thought should be added to the next Olympics and at the top of the list was ballroom dancing. We don't have enough room for the events we already have...

Larry

Unfortunately in the Olympics, there is not an unlimited amount of space for the world's athletes. I believe the average number of athletes in the summer games sits right around 10,000+.

The IOC has to limit the number of athletes attending or else there will be so many competitors, the games logistically could not be held.

ISSF has created the quota system for shooting. For one, this limits the competitors which is needed. Secondly, it forces countries to "earn" the right to compete in the games. If the quota system were not present, shooting would have to run numerous relays to accomodate the sub 540 air shooters, sub 520 free shooter, etc., etc. The Olympic games are not open to everyone, they are open to the world's best. If you don't find that fair...too bad. That's the way it is.

Going more into detail of fairness. The competitors that compete in events in which the NOC did not win a quota in that event, still had to make their NOC Olympic team in another event. The idea is, if they made the team in one event, if there is room on the firing line to keep it at one relay, and the shooter has an MQS for that event, he/she can compete in that additional event.

For those of you who think the smaller countries get screwed over. I remember the Virgin Island getting "wild card" quota slots in 2000. Basically the ISSF can automatically award quota places to countries that it thinks would benefit from an Olympic appearance. I know ISV was not the only country in 2000 that received this gift. I have not heard who received wild cards this year as I am no longer that close to the sport.

All the countries follow the same procedure for quotas and attending the Olympics, except for the wild cards. There are always going to be people who bitch about the rules. It happens for every international selection match in the US. Some people spend too much time complaining about the rules, which are fair and consistent, and not enough time training. The bottom line is, the shooters who perform better are the ones who make the teams. I am certain of that.

I'll end my post with one point. I know a good friend and accomplished shooter who once said, "if you want a ten, shoot a ten." I will modify it to say, "if you want to make the Olympic team, shoot your way onto the team." You'll get there a lot easier by training as opposed to complaining about it.

I also dare anyone to go up to Daryl and Jason and tell them face-to-face, it was unfair for them to shoot free at the games. I would be entertained by the response.

Mike Douglass

The double starter rule is very simple each athlete is only allowed to win one quaota spot. There is no way that an athlete can earn a second spot. So once you earn a spot for air. fp or Rapid and you can start in another event as long as you have an MQS .

Richard H wrote:The double starter rule is very simple each athlete is only allowed to win one quaota spot. There is no way that an athlete can earn a second spot. So once you earn a spot for air. fp or Rapid and you can start in another event as long as you have an MQS .

I thought the limitation was one quota spot per event per person. So you could win a quota spot in both Free and Air, but you couldn't win two Air quotas?

Well said Mike!

Pradeep wrote:I thought the limitation was one quota spot per event per person. So you could win a quota spot in both Free and Air, but you couldn't win two Air quotas?

You're wrong I'm afraid. The first sentance od rule Q.6.1 states "One shooter can obtain only one quota place for his country (NOC)."

Thanks for the clarification. I've seen it stated as one quota place per event, probably a dodgy translation.

Pradeep wrote:Thanks for the clarification. I've seen it stated as one quota place per event, probably a dodgy translation.

I am fairly sure (I do not have an old book with me) that it was one per shooter per event when the rules were published in 2001 (1st printing).

I think it was 2002 or 2003 that it changed to 1 per shooter (total).

2004 Final Olympic Team Selection Match - R P RT
50M Free Pistol Men
Ft Benning, GA
20 May, 2004 - 27 May, 2004 Champion Brian Zins 2319.4
2nd Place Daryl Szarenski 2316.2
3rd Place John Zurek 2285.0


Name Cat Fall 1 Fall 2 Spr1 Spr2 Final OlyTm
1 ZINS, Brian 560 549 553 559 98.4 2319.4
2 SZARENSKI, Daryl 550 554 556 561 95.2 2316.2
3 ZUREK, John 535 562 545 547 96.0 2285.0
4 TURNER, Jason 544 546 544 556 94.8 2284.8

The scores from the various matches that were used to select the 2004 Olympic Team.

Keep in mind USA Shooting will not eliminate these matches just because there are no quotas for those events at the upcoming games.

In case you didn't know, those matches are used to allow shooters to become members of the US team as well.

We have already discussed the rule, if you go to the games for one event you can compete in another provided you have your MQS. Basically you are implying that Zins should have been sent to Athens because he was at the top of the selection process.

You need to have a quota or go in another event...it's pretty clear what the rules state...

Mike Douglass