Anyone know of drawbacks to lead-free pellets for 10M air pistol shooting? I shoot indoors and am worried about the reports of lead poisoning likely caused by breathing the air after firing all these lead pellets, esp in indoor/home ranges.
Any suggestions on best lead free pellets to use in an IZH 46M?
jwolverton-at-hotmail.com.47834.0
Lead-free pellets?
Moderators: rexifelis, pilkguns
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Theodore L. Summers
Re: Lead-free pellets?
Ricochets were a problem for me with the Prometheus pellets I tried some years ago. They were also hard on metal targets as they left a dent in them like a steel BB does. I understand accuracy is a problem these days.
summers358-at-adelphia.net.47836.47834
summers358-at-adelphia.net.47836.47834
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Spencer C
Re: Lead-free pellets?
My 2c worth...
For ISSF; 8.4.8 Ammunition
All projectiles used must be made of lead or similar soft material only. Jacketed projectiles are not permitted.
1/ The only material that I am aware of that is 'similar', is more lead.
2/ Harder materials might not be a good idea for target guns - OK in plinkers which do not get used much, but for target work we are typically putting 60+ shots through the barrel each time we shoot.
I'm not fussed about putting a harder projectile through the barrel of my target pistol which is probably only a fairly soft steel.
.47838.47834
For ISSF; 8.4.8 Ammunition
All projectiles used must be made of lead or similar soft material only. Jacketed projectiles are not permitted.
1/ The only material that I am aware of that is 'similar', is more lead.
2/ Harder materials might not be a good idea for target guns - OK in plinkers which do not get used much, but for target work we are typically putting 60+ shots through the barrel each time we shoot.
I'm not fussed about putting a harder projectile through the barrel of my target pistol which is probably only a fairly soft steel.
.47838.47834
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Mako
Read this article on lead/airgunning ...
read fellow air gun shooter Dr. Matusic's article on lead and airgunning ... you might want to buy one of his duct putty filled target holders ... :-)
Link to article ...
makofoto-at-earthlink.net.47841.47834
Link to article ...
makofoto-at-earthlink.net.47841.47834
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TCooper
Is it even a legitimate concern?
I know lead dust can be produced when a pellet hits a metal backstop. With a duct seal trap this problem is avoided.
After handling pellets we should wash our hands thoroughly. This eliminates the transfer of lead dust to food and then into our system.
My question is whether or not shooting low velocity target airguns indoors is a problem? I shoot tens of thousands of pellets in my house (duct seal trap).
Does the lead actually become airborn from shooting pellets at 400-500fps into duct seal?
I lube my pellets with either a spray wax or special oil lube. Maybe this helps keep lead from direct contact with hands, maybe not? I dunno.
Any knowledge in this area would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Todd
.47842.47834
After handling pellets we should wash our hands thoroughly. This eliminates the transfer of lead dust to food and then into our system.
My question is whether or not shooting low velocity target airguns indoors is a problem? I shoot tens of thousands of pellets in my house (duct seal trap).
Does the lead actually become airborn from shooting pellets at 400-500fps into duct seal?
I lube my pellets with either a spray wax or special oil lube. Maybe this helps keep lead from direct contact with hands, maybe not? I dunno.
Any knowledge in this area would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Todd
.47842.47834
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Gary
maybe
I agree that the ductseal will take care of 99+% of it at the target. That is one reason why I switched from a metal trap to a duct seal trap.
But there is a question of how much lead dust particulant is generated by the pellet going down the barrel. Is any lead shaved off as a result of the rifling? Is any lead shaved off simply from barrel friction? I have no idea. Much less than that from hitting a metal trap, but how close to zero?
Gary
.47845.47842
But there is a question of how much lead dust particulant is generated by the pellet going down the barrel. Is any lead shaved off as a result of the rifling? Is any lead shaved off simply from barrel friction? I have no idea. Much less than that from hitting a metal trap, but how close to zero?
Gary
.47845.47842
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Jeff
It is a concern, and there are solutions:
Here's what I've found from my web searching:
A) Most of the problem is lead dust spewed from the barrel (that "sweet taste" you might notice after a lot of shots) due to the lead pellet's abrasion in the barrel (rifling.)
B) The EPA has strong concerns about it (do a google search on "Lead poisoning indoor shooting") and many cases of lead poisoning linked to indoor shooting have been reported. (EPA did a "Poisoned Pastime" article with a LOT of research. (Most of the problems were deemed caused by cumulative, long-term exposure to low-levels-- so shooting in the home for a few years and not dying isn't anymore compelling than saying radiation & cigarettes don't cause cancer.)
C) Both Daisy and Prometheus make alloy, tin or synthetic lead-free pellets (see links bellow.)
D) The Prometheus Dynamic lead pellets were tested for accuracy in a review side-by-side in identical rifles vs pellets. The review thought very highly of the Prometheus alloy pellets for accuracy (also claimed higher velocity.)
LINKS:
Prometheus:
http://jgairguns.tripod.com/airgunammo/id5.html
Daisy:
http://store.bbgunfunstore.com/dalefrpope21.html
Prometheus' links to AirGunner review:
http://www.airgunpellets.com/expert.htm
jwolverton-at-yahoo.com.47848.47834
A) Most of the problem is lead dust spewed from the barrel (that "sweet taste" you might notice after a lot of shots) due to the lead pellet's abrasion in the barrel (rifling.)
B) The EPA has strong concerns about it (do a google search on "Lead poisoning indoor shooting") and many cases of lead poisoning linked to indoor shooting have been reported. (EPA did a "Poisoned Pastime" article with a LOT of research. (Most of the problems were deemed caused by cumulative, long-term exposure to low-levels-- so shooting in the home for a few years and not dying isn't anymore compelling than saying radiation & cigarettes don't cause cancer.)
C) Both Daisy and Prometheus make alloy, tin or synthetic lead-free pellets (see links bellow.)
D) The Prometheus Dynamic lead pellets were tested for accuracy in a review side-by-side in identical rifles vs pellets. The review thought very highly of the Prometheus alloy pellets for accuracy (also claimed higher velocity.)
LINKS:
Prometheus:
http://jgairguns.tripod.com/airgunammo/id5.html
Daisy:
http://store.bbgunfunstore.com/dalefrpope21.html
Prometheus' links to AirGunner review:
http://www.airgunpellets.com/expert.htm
jwolverton-at-yahoo.com.47848.47834
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GaryN
Re: Lead-free pellets?
As has been suggested, use a trap with duct seal or ballistic putty to eliminate lead dust at the target.
In my experience of using different metal traps, this is where most of the lead dust comes from. It is the pellet "splattering" against the metal trap that generates the lead dust. If you eliminate the splattering, you eliminate 99+% of lead dust.
What comes out of the barrel is (I think) the remaining 1%. If you shoot in the basement, periodicaly do a damp mop of the area and you should get most of that.
If you still have a concern you could put an exhaust fan downrange from your shooting position.
Much of the indoor lead concern was from the lead used in primers. That put lead in a cloud right at the muzzle. The other is the hot gasses acting on the exposed lead at the base of a bullet. But these sources are not a concern with your IZH46.
Gary
.47849.47834
In my experience of using different metal traps, this is where most of the lead dust comes from. It is the pellet "splattering" against the metal trap that generates the lead dust. If you eliminate the splattering, you eliminate 99+% of lead dust.
What comes out of the barrel is (I think) the remaining 1%. If you shoot in the basement, periodicaly do a damp mop of the area and you should get most of that.
If you still have a concern you could put an exhaust fan downrange from your shooting position.
Much of the indoor lead concern was from the lead used in primers. That put lead in a cloud right at the muzzle. The other is the hot gasses acting on the exposed lead at the base of a bullet. But these sources are not a concern with your IZH46.
Gary
.47849.47834
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Bob LeDoux
Lead Is a Bigger Problem Than We Want to Admit
My comments refer to shooting in indoor settings:
I'm becoming more concerned about lead. Since I started shooting, I have seen an increase in my pb blood levels; in spite careful cleaning practices.
The shooting ranges I frequent routinely have layers of lead dust on all horizontal surfaces. I have reduced my time at shooting ranges to reduce my exposure. I tried wearing dust masks, and they help. After an hour at the range, the external mask surface tests positive for lead exposure.
I shoot air, at home, in my garage. With careful vacuuming I can keep the visible lead dust down.
I shoot free outside, at home. Except for cleaning out the target trap, I have been able to minimize my exposure by this method.
These experiences suggest to me that we have underestimated our lead exposure during shooting.
I'm convinced we need to develop new range designs that incorporate shooting through slots with positive pressure in the shooting position to exhaust contaminated air through the slots. The targets should be remotely housed, with no return to the shooting position. There would be open air between the shooting position and the target.
If you doubt my words, try what I have tried. Buy one of the low cost, surface lead test kits. Test any horizontal surface in your indoor shooting club. Test the exterior of a dust mask after shooting in an indoor environment.
I let my grandchildren shoot at home. But I will not take them to any local indoor range.
.47850.47834
I'm becoming more concerned about lead. Since I started shooting, I have seen an increase in my pb blood levels; in spite careful cleaning practices.
The shooting ranges I frequent routinely have layers of lead dust on all horizontal surfaces. I have reduced my time at shooting ranges to reduce my exposure. I tried wearing dust masks, and they help. After an hour at the range, the external mask surface tests positive for lead exposure.
I shoot air, at home, in my garage. With careful vacuuming I can keep the visible lead dust down.
I shoot free outside, at home. Except for cleaning out the target trap, I have been able to minimize my exposure by this method.
These experiences suggest to me that we have underestimated our lead exposure during shooting.
I'm convinced we need to develop new range designs that incorporate shooting through slots with positive pressure in the shooting position to exhaust contaminated air through the slots. The targets should be remotely housed, with no return to the shooting position. There would be open air between the shooting position and the target.
If you doubt my words, try what I have tried. Buy one of the low cost, surface lead test kits. Test any horizontal surface in your indoor shooting club. Test the exterior of a dust mask after shooting in an indoor environment.
I let my grandchildren shoot at home. But I will not take them to any local indoor range.
.47850.47834
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TCooper
Re: maybe
I have heard of lead dust at the muzzle of powder burning handguns when shooting cast bullets. At higher velocities this problem might even be worse with powder burners. I wish someone knew if the same problem existed when shooting 500fps airgun pellets.
Thanks,
Todd
.47851.47845
Thanks,
Todd
.47851.47845
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TCooper
Big Concern
Shooting ranges often have very high lead exposure problems. When I shot powder burning handguns I was at a range with a "top-of-the-line" exhaust system with HPA filters and pre-filters. The 6 guys who I regularly shot PPC with all had high blood lead levels. We went for semi-annual blood tests and some of us were in the danger zone. I was at the high level of normal. We started shooting with filtered canister masks but I ended up quiting the sport because the mask made things less fun.
My current concern is shooting indoors, in my house. I shoot in a carpeted area in a finished rec-room and have been doing so for 7 years. I only shoot a 425fps pellet pistol and I use a duct seal trap. I wonder if there is any lead dust at the muzzle from the pellets exiting the barrel. Is the velocity high enough for this to be a problem? Does there have to be combustion to have this problem? Does there have to be burning primers to have a lead problem at the muzzle?
Am I safe?
I think I will get my blood tested again.
Thanks,
Todd
.47852.47850
My current concern is shooting indoors, in my house. I shoot in a carpeted area in a finished rec-room and have been doing so for 7 years. I only shoot a 425fps pellet pistol and I use a duct seal trap. I wonder if there is any lead dust at the muzzle from the pellets exiting the barrel. Is the velocity high enough for this to be a problem? Does there have to be combustion to have this problem? Does there have to be burning primers to have a lead problem at the muzzle?
Am I safe?
I think I will get my blood tested again.
Thanks,
Todd
.47852.47850
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Jeff
Re: Big Concern
From what I read, the real problem is breathing clouds of lead dust in, much of it from these soft lead pellets rifling down the barrel.Guess the easy test is: can you taste a sweet taste after a coupla shots (that you didn't taste before)? If so, you're breathing in lead.
: Shooting ranges often have very high lead exposure problems. When I shot powder burning handguns I was at a range with a "top-of-the-line" exhaust system with HPA filters and pre-filters. The 6 guys who I regularly shot PPC with all had high blood lead levels. We went for semi-annual blood tests and some of us were in the danger zone. I was at the high level of normal. We started shooting with filtered canister masks but I ended up quiting the sport because the mask made things less fun.
: My current concern is shooting indoors, in my house. I shoot in a carpeted area in a finished rec-room and have been doing so for 7 years. I only shoot a 425fps pellet pistol and I use a duct seal trap. I wonder if there is any lead dust at the muzzle from the pellets exiting the barrel. Is the velocity high enough for this to be a problem? Does there have to be combustion to have this problem? Does there have to be burning primers to have a lead problem at the muzzle?
: Am I safe?
: I think I will get my blood tested again.
: Thanks,
: Todd
jwolverton-at-hotmail.com.47853.47852
: Shooting ranges often have very high lead exposure problems. When I shot powder burning handguns I was at a range with a "top-of-the-line" exhaust system with HPA filters and pre-filters. The 6 guys who I regularly shot PPC with all had high blood lead levels. We went for semi-annual blood tests and some of us were in the danger zone. I was at the high level of normal. We started shooting with filtered canister masks but I ended up quiting the sport because the mask made things less fun.
: My current concern is shooting indoors, in my house. I shoot in a carpeted area in a finished rec-room and have been doing so for 7 years. I only shoot a 425fps pellet pistol and I use a duct seal trap. I wonder if there is any lead dust at the muzzle from the pellets exiting the barrel. Is the velocity high enough for this to be a problem? Does there have to be combustion to have this problem? Does there have to be burning primers to have a lead problem at the muzzle?
: Am I safe?
: I think I will get my blood tested again.
: Thanks,
: Todd
jwolverton-at-hotmail.com.47853.47852
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Jeff
Re: maybe
From my post above:
From what I read, the real problem is breathing clouds of lead dust in, much of it from these soft lead pellets rifling down the barrel.Guess the easy test is: can you taste a sweet taste after a coupla shots (that you didn't taste before)? If so, you're breathing in lead.
: I have heard of lead dust at the muzzle of powder burning handguns when shooting cast bullets. At higher velocities this problem might even be worse with powder burners. I wish someone knew if the same problem existed when shooting 500fps airgun pellets.
: Thanks,
: Todd
jwolverton-at-hotmail.com.47854.47851
From what I read, the real problem is breathing clouds of lead dust in, much of it from these soft lead pellets rifling down the barrel.Guess the easy test is: can you taste a sweet taste after a coupla shots (that you didn't taste before)? If so, you're breathing in lead.
: I have heard of lead dust at the muzzle of powder burning handguns when shooting cast bullets. At higher velocities this problem might even be worse with powder burners. I wish someone knew if the same problem existed when shooting 500fps airgun pellets.
: Thanks,
: Todd
jwolverton-at-hotmail.com.47854.47851
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Questor
Re: Lead Is a Bigger Problem Than We Want to Admit
I dramatically cut down on shooting indoors with firearms, and will probably stop shooting centerfire indoors altogether. I can typically smell the charge when it goes off. If I can smell it, I'm breathing lead from the primers. The new PMC green primers are encouraging, but I'm not sure it's enough.
.47857.47850
.47857.47850
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AD
Re: Lead-free pellets?
I've heard that bismuth is a very good substitute for lead. Its also being used in shotgun loads. Its 20% denser than steel. The density average of lead is 11.4g/cc while bismuth is 9.7g/cc.
Zinc pellets also have been manufactured for shotguns, the wear and tear of the barrel of the shot gun was no more with zince than when used with lead. It is supposed to have very similar characteristics to that of Bismuth but is cheaper
Also in shotguns there is something called molyshot, which is a molybdenum-polymer alloy, its supposed to be as soft as lead on the barrel.
Akshay
akshaydashrath-at-yahoo.co.in.47860.47838
Zinc pellets also have been manufactured for shotguns, the wear and tear of the barrel of the shot gun was no more with zince than when used with lead. It is supposed to have very similar characteristics to that of Bismuth but is cheaper
Also in shotguns there is something called molyshot, which is a molybdenum-polymer alloy, its supposed to be as soft as lead on the barrel.
Akshay
akshaydashrath-at-yahoo.co.in.47860.47838
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George
Re: Is it even a legitimate concern?
Hi Todd,
I just went and carried out a simple experiment. I held a piece of clean white paper 5mm in front of the muzzle of my FWB 80, then fired 5 shots thro' it, about 25mm apart. Then I inspected the paper surface using a high magnification jeweller's loupe. In each case there were only 4 or 5 minute specks of lead around the pellet hole. This would SEEM to suggest that the amount of free lead dust blown out of the muzzle of an air pistol is minute. HTH.
George
bearcats-at-xtra.co.nz.47861.47842
I just went and carried out a simple experiment. I held a piece of clean white paper 5mm in front of the muzzle of my FWB 80, then fired 5 shots thro' it, about 25mm apart. Then I inspected the paper surface using a high magnification jeweller's loupe. In each case there were only 4 or 5 minute specks of lead around the pellet hole. This would SEEM to suggest that the amount of free lead dust blown out of the muzzle of an air pistol is minute. HTH.
George
bearcats-at-xtra.co.nz.47861.47842
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yana
Re: Lead-free pellets?
bismuth is very rare and expensive, it also can shatter to pieces when it
it hits the target
Eley makes them 4 shotguns
molyshot=the not poisenous metal molybdeen with
'plastics'that'll fall apart naturally
wolfraam is added for weight
these shotgun pellets are very deformable, even better than lead
so it would be the best alternative for lead hale, but it's expensive
Kent Cartridges makes it
also they're trying:
tin
iron with wolfraam
hwtyger-at-hotmail.com.47873.47860
it hits the target
Eley makes them 4 shotguns
molyshot=the not poisenous metal molybdeen with
'plastics'that'll fall apart naturally
wolfraam is added for weight
these shotgun pellets are very deformable, even better than lead
so it would be the best alternative for lead hale, but it's expensive
Kent Cartridges makes it
also they're trying:
tin
iron with wolfraam
hwtyger-at-hotmail.com.47873.47860
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yana
Re: Lead-free pellets?
they're not very well reviewed by airgunners
but maybe we'll just have to cope with them cause we may not have a choice in the future
hwtyger-at-hotmail.com.47874.47836
but maybe we'll just have to cope with them cause we may not have a choice in the future
hwtyger-at-hotmail.com.47874.47836
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Ken J
Phoey!!
The vast majority of lead exposure due to shooting comes from the lead in the priming mixture. Here is where you get lead vapors. However, this exposure is VERY small. I will grant you that if you shoot indoors, you should have a positive air flow down range to limit your exposure. This can easily be accomplished. My indoor range has an air conditioner behind me, fed by outside air. In front of me, I have a squirrel cage fan pulling the air away from me. I have tested my range and found almost no lead accumulation. I shoot there every day, up to 200 rounds per day. The range building is only 8x16, so it's definately a confined space (I shoot thru slots at the end of the building to a target at 50 meters).
Now, as for lead fumes/vapor in the air when you're shooting a pellet gun, phoey! Ain't no such animal. Your real world exposure comes from dipping your paws into the tin of pellets. Wash your hands after shooting and consume no food/beverage until doing so.
Also, one more point. Lets keep everone on the straight and narrow here. The dust that accumulates after large quantities of indoor shooting is not "lead dust"! Yes, it may test positive for lead, but the dust is largely unburned powder residue. If we go around telling people it's lead dust, folks who like to shut ranges down will become all the more enraged! I will grant you that the dust may contain lead. However, if you don't eat it or lick it, it won't cause lead poisoning. Remember, lead is heavy. It does not float in the air of its own accord. Due to laws past over the years, lead has become the red headed step child of OSHA and the gun grabbers. However, I challenge you to find accounts of true lead poisoning due to shooting on a range. The number of shooters in the US is quite large. Find me some statistics. Most all lead poisoning comes from ingestion of lead paint or, believe it or not, chewing on bullets! (I know a shooter, who used to chew on bullets. He frequents this site. In his mis-spent youth, he would indeed chew on .22 bullets. Yes, he has high amounts of lead in his system. He's a friend of mine. Unfortunately, noone took him out behind the wood shed when he was young and taught him the error of his ways. I'm sure he'll now agree with me.)
I cast lead in great quantities. I shoot from an indoor range. I have competed on the international circuit for 17 years. I clean guns all the time. I'm in the shooting industry. I fish with lead weights. I clean my hands and exposed surfaces of my skin after coming in contact with lead. I don't have lead poisoning. Lead exposure from shooting pellets? Get real.
Oh, one more thing. The smell you get and the taste in the back of your throat when shooting eley bullets comes not from lead, fyi. It's from their lubricant.
.47875.47834
Now, as for lead fumes/vapor in the air when you're shooting a pellet gun, phoey! Ain't no such animal. Your real world exposure comes from dipping your paws into the tin of pellets. Wash your hands after shooting and consume no food/beverage until doing so.
Also, one more point. Lets keep everone on the straight and narrow here. The dust that accumulates after large quantities of indoor shooting is not "lead dust"! Yes, it may test positive for lead, but the dust is largely unburned powder residue. If we go around telling people it's lead dust, folks who like to shut ranges down will become all the more enraged! I will grant you that the dust may contain lead. However, if you don't eat it or lick it, it won't cause lead poisoning. Remember, lead is heavy. It does not float in the air of its own accord. Due to laws past over the years, lead has become the red headed step child of OSHA and the gun grabbers. However, I challenge you to find accounts of true lead poisoning due to shooting on a range. The number of shooters in the US is quite large. Find me some statistics. Most all lead poisoning comes from ingestion of lead paint or, believe it or not, chewing on bullets! (I know a shooter, who used to chew on bullets. He frequents this site. In his mis-spent youth, he would indeed chew on .22 bullets. Yes, he has high amounts of lead in his system. He's a friend of mine. Unfortunately, noone took him out behind the wood shed when he was young and taught him the error of his ways. I'm sure he'll now agree with me.)
I cast lead in great quantities. I shoot from an indoor range. I have competed on the international circuit for 17 years. I clean guns all the time. I'm in the shooting industry. I fish with lead weights. I clean my hands and exposed surfaces of my skin after coming in contact with lead. I don't have lead poisoning. Lead exposure from shooting pellets? Get real.
Oh, one more thing. The smell you get and the taste in the back of your throat when shooting eley bullets comes not from lead, fyi. It's from their lubricant.
.47875.47834
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Mike McDaniel
I wouldn't worry about it
Most of the lead present on a cartridge gun range comes from the lead styphanate in the primers. With air pistols, I'd agree with Dr. Matusic - use a duct-seal putty trap to eliminate spalling, and wash your hands after shooting. And maybe open a window.
HMSLion-at-aol.com.47876.47834
HMSLion-at-aol.com.47876.47834