TargetTalk

Posted: **Tue Dec 26, 2023 7:00 am**

I have just returned to pistol shooting in Australia after a 20 year break and Im in the market for a new air pistol. Previously I had a Steyer about a 1998 model i think it was and alway found it started to get front heavy after about 40 shots. I have looked up the Pardini and seen that there is a Junior model which is about 35mm shorter and slightly lighter than the full size K12 and was wondering if many senior people use the junior gun? the shorter air cylinder and lighter weight has got me thinking it would be good for the 60 shot match. I have also seen the Walther LP500 expert with the carbon fiber cylinder and was wondering if you can buy this gun with a shorter cylinder? Are there any real negatives with either gun? are there any other recommendations I should look at?

Posted: **Tue Dec 26, 2023 7:32 am**

Steyr dealer Pilkington in the US has been refusing to sell full-length APs to anyone not proven to be capable of a decent level of accuracy.
I think that tells you what he thinks.

I don't see any problems with your further thinking on the matter.

Posted: **Tue Dec 26, 2023 9:48 am**

Just to muddy the waters further, you can always put a short cylinder on a full length pistol. That way you get the long sight radius, and the option of adding weight at a wider range of distances.

Morini also has a short version of their 162EI. They move the rear sight back so the sight radius is unchanged from the long version.

The college team I help coach has a wide variety of different pistols. We have a number of full size Steyrs, and one compact LP10. For the future, we've decided to standardize on the full size ones, and use short cylinders if the students have trouble with the weight. It gives us more flexibility that an individual may not need. If you are unsure about what you want and can't try out options, it might be a good way to go.

Posted: **Tue Dec 26, 2023 10:59 am**

When comparing to "old" air pistols from the 80-90s all the new ones are comparatively lighter. Pretty much all the current generation full size air pistols (with the exception of the Pardini k12 iirc) come in below 1kg. A Steyr LP1 for example weights 1110g going by the manual. The current EVO10 tech specs claim 968g (mine comes to 1010 with my puttied up grip). Similar things hold for my Morinis. My CM162 weighted in at 1114g with the customized grip while the CM200 ended up at a flat 1000g with the same treatment.
Either way that difference of around 100g is more than the difference between a typical long and short version. Also more than the extra weights they ship with...

My point is, just because 90s air pistols seemed heavy I wouldn't instantly jump to getting the lightest current generation one without at least trying the regular ones. The generational changes are bigger than the 30g or so you gain on a short version.

Posted: **Tue Dec 26, 2023 12:53 pm**

Rover wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 7:32 am Steyr dealer Pilkington in the US has been refusing to sell full-length APs to anyone not proven to be capable of a decent level of accuracy.
I think that tells you what he thinks.

I don't see any problems with your further thinking on the matter.

I don't believe this to be true currently.

Posted: **Tue Dec 26, 2023 1:14 pm**

Grippy wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 10:59 am When comparing to "old" air pistols from the 80-90s all the new ones are comparatively lighter. Pretty much all the current generation full size air pistols (with the exception of the Pardini k12 iirc) come in below 1kg. A Steyr LP1 for example weights 1110g going by the manual. The current EVO10 tech specs claim 968g (mine comes to 1010 with my puttied up grip). Similar things hold for my Morinis. My CM162 weighted in at 1114g with the customized grip while the CM200 ended up at a flat 1000g with the same treatment.
Either way that difference of around 100g is more than the difference between a typical long and short version. Also more than the extra weights they ship with...

My point is, just because 90s air pistols seemed heavy I wouldn't instantly jump to getting the lightest current generation one without at least trying the regular ones. The generational changes are bigger than the 30g or so you gain on a short version.

I'm in the process of resurrecting a Walther CP2 Match to sell. I've got it shooting now, but I'd forgotten how muzzle heavy they were with the steel cylinders. I shot one for years, but I was 40 years younger then. I looked up the weight, and it's 1180 grams. I'm not sure if that includes the weight of a full load of CO2...

Posted: **Tue Dec 26, 2023 5:10 pm**

I’ve got two compacts, FWB P44 and in the last month, an Evo10e. Both weigh 900 grams.
Both test cards show a very tight grouping.
Why even consider a full length pistol?
Is there a view that compacts are for juniors, ladies and older people with less shoulder strength? Does this bother you?
Length doesn’t matter.
It isn’t what you’ve got, it’s what you can do with it.

Posted: **Tue Dec 26, 2023 5:38 pm**

Greetings,

I recently came into possession of a Walther CPM-1.

The CO2 cylinders are mounted in a vertical position close to the trigger.

This moves the center of gravity more rearward.

Also, you can unscrew the rod for the adjustable weights and leave it in your shooting box.

It is still CO2 and parts are starting to dry up. However, I did see a PCP conversion offering from Walther.

Cheers,

David

Posted: **Tue Dec 26, 2023 6:40 pm**

I think there is a bit of opinion that the compact pistols are for the junior or lady shooter so that is why i asked if anybody (adult males) shoots the shorter models. Air pistol is a lengthy match and can be fatiguing at times. my wife had a CMP1 Walther some 25 years ago and i always felt I shot it better than my Steyer as there was no weight out the front.

Posted: **Tue Dec 26, 2023 7:41 pm**

Racingt wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 5:10 pm I’ve got two compacts, FWB P44 and in the last month, an Evo10e. Both weigh 900 grams.
Both test cards show a very tight grouping.
Why even consider a full length pistol?
Is there a view that compacts are for juniors, ladies and older people with less shoulder strength? Does this bother you?
Length doesn’t matter.
It isn’t what you’ve got, it’s what you can do with it.

There's more to shooting an air pistol well than how it groups from a vise. The weight, balance, sight radius and moment of inertia all affect how well a human can shoot them. IF you can hold it up, a pistol with more mass (especially out forward) WILL be more stable. It's simple physics.

From: https://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.ph ... 48#p268248

Here's the way the physics works:

The pivot point for supporting the pistol is roughly at the wrist joint.

The "moment" of a small weight (mass "M") at a radius "R" from the pivot is just MxR. Gravity pulling the mass down will produce a torque that's going to add to the muzzle heaviness. Doubling the weight has the same effect as doubling the radius.

The "moment of inertia" is a measure of how much the pistol will resist forces that want to make it wobble around. This is equal to MxR^2 (squared).

If you double the mass, the moment of inertia doubles. HOWEVER, if instead you double the radius, the moment of inertia goes up by a factor of FOUR!

Basically, you can double the moment of inertia while keeping the moment the same by cutting the weight in half and doubling the radius. This means that if the pistol is too muzzle heavy for you, it's better to keep the weight as far forward as possible, and reduce the weight until the balance is manageable.

The limit to how much benefit the weights can produce for you is really set by how muzzle heavy the pistol can be without wearing you out over a match. That is why nobody can tell you how to set them up. It's a VERY individual matter, and will also vary with time as your fitness level fluctuates.

YMMV (your moment may vary)

Posted: **Wed Dec 27, 2023 1:39 am**

Is there a view that compacts are for juniors, ladies and older people with less shoulder strength? Does this bother you?
Length doesn’t matter.

That's certainly how they are marketed. Although from casual observation in my circles even the ladies don't use short versions very often. To me it feels like the "full size" versions are as intentionally designed and then the short versions are an afterthought and thus require more justification.

It wouldn't bother me personally if I felt the short version was better for me. I use a Steyr LP50 Compact for air pistol rapid fire events since its (sight) geometry is closer to the 25m pistols. And for that reason I do actually disagree with "Length doesn't matter". The length is in my opinion the more important difference between the short and long versions. On the one hand because of the moment of inertia considerations mentioned above but also because it determines the sight line lengths available. Shortening the sight line is in my opinion the bigger advantage for beginners than the 5% or so weight reduction.

I was curious and collected the manufacturer claimed weights of most current models I'd consider. Based on my experience with the ones I do have the real world weight ends up slightly higher. I assume due to grip sizes? After customizing the medium grips on a CM200, EVO10 and P8X each I ended up with all of them in the 1000-1010gram range without any weights attached.

Code: Select all

Model                   Weight [grams]

Morini CM162EI          1020
Morini CM162EI Short     970
Morini CM200EI           985
Steyr EVO10              968
Steyr EVO10 Compact      901
Feinwerkbau P8X          950
Feinwerkbau P8X Short    870
Walther LP500 Expert     950
Pardini K12             1040
Pardini K12 Short        950 (?)
Pardini K12 J Short      910

So if low weight was desired the Pardini K12 Short that was mentioned in the original question wouldn't be the model I'd chose.

Edit: I just realized there is a separate "J Short" version that somehow sheds another 40grams. So why not i guess.

Edit2: I'm now fully confused. The pardini.de site lists only a "Short" without "J" version at 950 and pardini.it only lists a "J Short" at 910. So which one is it? I guess when in doubt the pardini.it is to be trusted?

Posted: **Wed Dec 27, 2023 3:13 am**

With a (nearly) full charge of CO2 my ancient Feinwerkbau Modell 2 weighs >1200 grams. Almost empty it will still be >1100 grams.

Note, it still shoots amazingly well but I do find it to be very heavy, and its balance and unadjustable grip angle is almost right (for me) - but not quite.

The trigger is superb and I like the pistol's "operation cycle", especially the loading gate mechanism, but still I bit the pellet and ordered a new Steyr EVO10 last week. Moving to pcp with valid cylinders means I'll be able to compete at official on site matches too, not just postal competitions.

And I'm hoping 30-40 years of gun development will bring something to the table, if only grip adjustability.
We'll see what we'll see...

Posted: **Wed Dec 27, 2023 10:01 am**

My few Eurocents: I have a Steyr LP 50 RF Compact, which I chose because it allows me to simulate several disciplines in my garage. If it's air pistol you're shooting, then you'd want something else. The trigger is, for example, not great. However, because I compete mainly in various 25-meter disciplines, the five-shot capacity allows me to practice as if I'm at the range. It is fun to be able to shoot some standard pistol at home, and I'm pretty happy with how similar it is to my .22 (MG2E), although it is a bit lighter.

Posted: **Wed Dec 27, 2023 10:35 am**

I briefly had a FWB P44 short, but it was so small and light it felt like a child's gun and was (for me) hard to hold steady (-ish). I traded it for a full size P44, added a barrel weight, and I like it very much. I use it for home practice, and it is helpful training for shooting .22LR / 45ACP at the range.

GWhite's info on moment is useful and I believe you can feel the benefit of mass out on the barrel. I've also added weight to my Hammerli 208 for the same reason.

Posted: **Wed Dec 27, 2023 4:27 pm**

I've had the same thoughts.
My first piece of advice: Try out various pistols. The clubs likely will have a variety and of course the shooters have different models. Some dealers have many models on stock. It is very much a matter of personal preference and "feel" of the various guns rather than the factory spec.

I have ended up with a standard length pistol with a short cylinder and no added weights. I feel this to be the best for me.

I tried the short Steyr Evo10 - it is very good, indeed. Pointable. When adjusting the rear sight as far back as it goes - some 30 mm I guess - the sight radius is almost as long as on many full length pistols. This made it feel more stable to me. A bit less nervous.

But I did not end up with it.
As said: try. - If the short gun is not too short for you (steadiness of the hold), go for it. They are marketed as "junior" models but I know few juniors who actually shoot them.

To me the short cylinder reduces the nose-heaviness which I hate, makes the pistol a tad lighter which I like and retains the long sight radius which I prefer.
Based on the trial with the short Steyr, however, I don't doubt that I could score equally well with it, too.

You ask the right question at the best forum - a lot of good advice was given. It boils down to personal preference.

I'll add one more thing. Age, yes... a factor for sure. But also consider weight training. Not just your arms and upper body but your back and stomach muscles, too. They are key to a good hold. Even with good musculature you may, like me, prefer a lighter and less nose-heavy gun. It is quite ok of course.

- Lars/Finland

Posted: **Fri Dec 29, 2023 1:59 pm**

Excellent advice from everyone, don’t forget to get the correct grip size. I’ve just spent 6 years shooting one which was too small, and a change yielded immediate improvement. Books or the internet didn’t help me, a past national champion did.
It’s a great sport, hope you enjoy it.

Posted: **Mon Jan 22, 2024 6:43 pm**

kqrxbn wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 10:01 am My few Eurocents: I have a Steyr LP 50 RF Compact, which I chose because it allows me to simulate several disciplines in my garage. If it's air pistol you're shooting, then you'd want something else. The trigger is, for example, not great. However, because I compete mainly in various 25-meter disciplines, the five-shot capacity allows me to practice as if I'm at the range. It is fun to be able to shoot some standard pistol at home, and I'm pretty happy with how similar it is to my .22 (MG2E), although it is a bit lighter.

Curious...I have an LP50 and .22 MG2EVO. My MG2 breaks very clean at very slightly over 2.0# (908 g), per pistol rules where I shoot. I've tried to get the LP50 trigger pull in that range, AND, maintain a crisp release. I gave up, mostly due to reliability issues. Any hints on setting up the LP50 for a more crisp, predictable release in the higher weight range? Thanks...Tim

Posted: **Tue Jan 23, 2024 6:03 am**

Yeah, the MG trigger is amazing. I've dabbled with the LP 50 trigger but no matter what I do, it retains the looong crunchy grating creep that also seems to snag on something from time to time. The LP 10 is worlds apart and I'm not sure why it's difficult to make a good trigger on the LP 50.

I did try shortening the travel but ended up with double shots and failure to advance/cock the second time. Could be worth experimenting with that if you're only shooting with the 1-shot magazine for a period of time, but otherwise I'd suggest you avoid the adjustment screw with the red lacquer

When I said in my original post that they were similar I meant in how they allowed me to shoot as if I were shooting "sport pistol" in my garage. The triggers are not similar at all. I cannot remember now how the trigger on the LP 50 feels like at 500 g; I've set it as heavy as it goes and that's what I shoot with.

Posted: **Tue Jan 23, 2024 10:14 am**

kqrxbn wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2024 6:03 am When I said in my original post that they were similar I meant in how they allowed me to shoot as if I were shooting "sport pistol" in my garage. The triggers are not similar at all. I cannot remember now how the trigger on the LP 50 feels like at 500 g; I've set it as heavy as it goes and that's what I shoot with.

I had the same adjustment problems. I have it set now at 500 g with a little 1st stage pre-travel. I think the issue is that the LP 50 trigger has to "reset"...something in the design of that feature. I was wondering if you (or someone else) had some custom trigger work done to improve it. I'm thinking of just selling mine...though it is a fun and accurate AP.

Posted: **Tue Jan 23, 2024 1:28 pm**

LP50 is 5 shot air pistol. Unlike a semi-auto pistol which uses recoil energy to cycle the slide, the LP trigger has to reset the firing mechanism each shot, which would explain felt trigger differences.

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