TargetTalk

Hi,

My Baikal 46M never releases air after the initial pump.
last +/- 150 shots there was not any successful first trigger pull.
After the first failures the second pump movement was always successfull.
Now it seems that a thirth is needed most of the time.

I think it's not about the air and that the pistol is under pressure after the first pump.
And that the second (or thirth) movement does set the air shutter/mechanical system in the right status.

The Baikal has shot about 500 pellets.
About 200 by me.

It can be that it started after I put pellgunoil on 2 parts and the two rings. The parts were the "air compression chamber" (as indicated in the manual) and the "compression chamber transfer port", in my novice words the small opening near the pellet entrance point (barrel).
With the two rings I mean the small o-rings (no 19) on the bolt.

Advice is more than welcome with this being a great air pistol.

Pellgunoil is NOT a synthetic oil. Synthetic oils are needed for lubrication of Euroguns. Pellguniol is a petroleum based oil and is quite hard on the Orings in most target pistols.

spektr wrote: ↑Tue Apr 11, 2023 11:43 am Pellgunoil is NOT a synthetic oil. Synthetic oils are needed for lubrication of Euroguns. Pellguniol is a petroleum based oil and is quite hard on the Orings in most target pistols.

The main gunsmith for the US importer recommends regular air tool oil. You can get a small bottle that will last a lifetime at any large home store like Lowes or Home Depot.

spektr wrote: ↑Tue Apr 11, 2023 11:43 am Pellgunoil is NOT a synthetic oil. Synthetic oils are needed for lubrication of Euroguns. Pellguniol is a petroleum based oil and is quite hard on the Orings in most target pistols.

Ok, uhm... thanks!
Could be I should take more time reading through untire webpages, but scanning trough this page:
https://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?t=23741
More precise post 2 and 3 made me think pellgunoil was what I needed.

I just ordered synthetic gun oil and I hope it makes the Baikal run again as intended.
Thanks Gwhite, I just read your post. In case this synthetic gun oil is too thick or something, I will try "synthetic air tool oil".

Thanks a lot for this great and clear info!

Greetings!

Synthetic air tool oil works great

I am still hunting for the right oil. But I get more and more the opinion that the problem is mechanical.
Perhaps I better bring it away to a repairer.

Can somebody please say if compressor oil is the same as air tool oil?

I think that, where I live that air tool oil mainly is mineral based (hardly ever mentioned). Compressor oil is more available in synthetic form.

Ballistol is what I have used on all my air guns for decades, both PCP and SSP.
I too would guess your problem is mechanical.
Have you tried cocking the hammer as a separate operation from pumping the chamber?

breadfan wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2023 11:39 amCan somebody please say if compressor oil is the same as air tool oil?

Not at all. Compressors use an engine-type oil to lubricate their crankcase. Air tool oil is a non-flammable and highly lightweight oil which can be used in the air tools themselves.

brent375hh wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2023 12:36 pm Ballistol is what I have used on all my air guns for decades, both PCP and SSP.
I too would guess your problem is mechanical.
Have you tried cocking the hammer as a separate operation from pumping the chamber?

Yes I saw three manuals (2019, 2020 and the Air Venturi manual). All three are different in describing how to lube the cylinder.
Reading those I don't get the idea it's likely that the pistol won't work in a few hundred shots after using the wrong grease or lube.
Also with cocking the hammer then pull the lever a bit further does also not work.

After lubing with synthetic gun oil there are probably 2 good shots, than it's over again.
Today I received a second Baikal for use at the shooting club. This one sounds different and slides different when moving the lever. Sounds better I think.
Could be that it has more power also. Did not measure this. And it was tin (in the old bad pistol) versus lead (in the new good pistol).

-TT- wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2023 3:44 pm

breadfan wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2023 11:39 amCan somebody please say if compressor oil is the same as air tool oil?

Not at all. Compressors use an engine-type oil to lubricate their crankcase. Air tool oil is a non-flammable and highly lightweight oil which can be used in the air tools themselves.

Ok, super, thanks. I will go further with my search.
I think that what Americans name "air tool oil" around here is called "pneumatic oil".
But preventing more stupid actions (from myself) I will order "synthetic air tool oil" even if I have to wait longer for it to arrive.

It sounds like your pistol may have residue from previous lubricants gumming up the works. Ballistol is a light solvent/lubricant that might help flush out some of the gunk. It's probably hard to get outside the USA, but the cleaner/lubricant that has been recommended for decades for high end air guns is something called TSI-301. The host of the forum recommends it.

Ballistol is not easy to come by in Costa Rica, that's the reason I just use mineral oil (Ballistol contains mostly medical grade mineral oil) purchased from the pharmacy for lubrication of several of my SSP and multipump pneumatics. However, I do use FWB special grease on my Izzy.

By compressing and firing the pistol without a pellet several times, you should be able to get some of the gunk outta the pistol.

If the problem persists, a disassembly is needed to see if there are parts that need to be replaced.

kevinweiho wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2023 10:20 pm Ballistol is not easy to come by in Costa Rica, that's the reason I just use mineral oil (Ballistol contains mostly medical grade mineral oil) purchased from the pharmacy for lubrication of several of my SSP and multipump pneumatics. However, I do use FWB special grease on my Izzy.

By compressing and firing the pistol without a pellet several times, you should be able to get some of the gunk outta the pistol.

If the problem persists, a disassembly is needed to see if there are parts that need to be replaced.

Good idea!
But it did not work. And I noticed the most weird thing in my shooting career.

All the times without a pellet the shutter opened direct after the first pump. All the times with a pellet the shutter did not open (after the first, second or even third try).
It must be a great indication, but for me it only makes me feel more stupid.

What I can think is that the pellet is not put far enough in the barrel, making it stick out and impossible for the hammer with the ring to close.
But the problem is also there when I give the pellet an extra push with the Baikal stick tool.
Although the room for the pellet is tight and the tin pellets are very hard.
I think I shot now about about 500 of these tin pellets with at least 700 failed shots.
Hopefully it's something I just don't see.
Even if the pistol does shoot correct with lead pellets. Then I would still not now what the problem is with the tin pellets.

breadfan wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 1:06 pm
All the times without a pellet the shutter opened direct after the first pump. All the times with a pellet the shutter did not open (after the first, second or even third try).

What I can think is that the pellet is not put far enough in the barrel, making it stick out and impossible for the hammer with the ring to close.
But the problem is also there when I give the pellet an extra push with the Baikal stick tool.
Although the room for the pellet is tight and the tin pellets are very hard.
I think I shot now about about 500 of these tin pellets with at least 700 failed shots.
Hopefully it's something I just don't see.
Even if the pistol does shoot correct with lead pellets. Then I would still not now what the problem is with the tin pellets.

When you manually cock the breech bolt, is there a little resistance and a small "clic" sound when pulled all the way to the end?

Also, when bringing down the bolt, do you feel tension of the latch on the bolt? When the pistol is compressed with air, put a piece of tissue paper on top of the breech bolt and fire away, if the tissue moves, the breech seal(s) is (are) faulty.

kevinweiho wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 9:54 pm
When you manually cock the breech bolt, is there a little resistance and a small "clic" sound when pulled all the way to the end?

Also, when bringing down the bolt, do you feel tension of the latch on the bolt? When the pistol is compressed with air, put a piece of tissue paper on top of the breech bolt and fire away, if the tissue moves, the breech seal(s) is (are) faulty.

Yes, there is resistance and then a click at the end. It's more or less the same as with the good functioning pistol. No strange things here as it seems.

There is tension when bringing down the bolt. It's also the same as with my other pistol.

With a small and light piece of toilet paper it looks like there is some air leaving from the side of the pistol.
But I think it's minimal. The sound is mainly (and I think only) the click of the trigger.
This minimal escape of air is not hapening with an actual firing (when the air shutter opens and the pellet leaves).
Changing the two o-rings does not make a change in this. Also with the "new" o-rings always at the first shot and often second and sometimes third attempt the pistol will not shoot.

Bread,
There are those here on the forum that will disagree with me but at this time of life, I don’t give hoot.
Leave the pistol charged when you are through shooting it.
Use minimal amounts of oils.
On the hinges and the main piston.
My friend in KS has shot his IZZY in excess of 100,000 times and he is the 2nd owner.
(He shoots cowbirds on his ranch.)
Me?
Only about 13,000 times and I too, am the 2nd owner.
Store the air shutter lowered but out of battery when storing.
Stop shooting large pellets.
Shoot 4.5mm 7.0 pellets.
My $.02…

All signs seem to point to pistol seal (#5). Happened to me when I used apparently wrong airtool oil. Secondary suspect - valve seat.

And I second the idea of using minimal amount of oil, if any at all. Original instructions for Izh have only recommendation of lubing pistol seal, and only if pumping becomes too hard.

You have to lube the hinges.

Thank you P and UnGe!

It's most likely that I put too much (wrong) oil on the cup.
This was perhaps a wrong combination with sitting still for the pistol for some period.

I am going to try to find somebody who can repair it.

Thank you all for the help.
I think I will post the outcome. But it's going to take a lot of time. Multiple weeks I am afraid.

MAC1.com
Or the Adminstrators of this forum.
They can repair it for you.

PeeWeeDaddy wrote: ↑Sat Apr 22, 2023 9:21 am MAC1.com
Or the Adminstrators of this forum.
They can repair it for you.

I didn't see where he stated it directly, but I don't think the OP is in the US.