TargetTalk

American Smallbore Shooting Association would like to understand what the shooting community feels about the current state of precision smallbore competition in the USA. Please help us by completing this short survey. As we have always maintained our organization is for shooters by shooters and the best way to understand each other is by open and transparent communication

https://mailchi.mp/082316016fe3/the-sta ... ompetition

Why is the USAShooting National Championship not included in the last question of the survey?

I took the survey yesterday via email.
I will add this: things will continue to go downhill until all the governing bodies get together without the egos and work on running one National Championship.

People have varying reasons for going to the Championship(s) they choose. I go to Perry because of the location, the history, the lower match fees and the cost of housing.

“We must, indeed, hang together, or we will all, most assuredly, hang separately.” Ben Franklin

pfiori wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 2:34 pm Why is the USAShooting National Championship not included in the last question of the survey?

When USA shooting begins running Men’s Prone and a 4 day 6400 they will be included in the conversation. As you well know, USA shooting is unique in they are our governing body with a voice at the USOC table. They were included in the type of shooting question to get a better understanding of the shooting demographic taking part in the survey.

Thanks for the question and thanks for taking the survey. Please share it.

Agree 100%. While I will participate where and when I can no matter the governing body I have personally placed my flag of support behind the CMP. Along with the reasons quoted the CMP has a proven track record over the past 25 years of promoting the traditional shooting sports and have broadened their offerings to cater to a wide swath of shooters, including the youth. This effort has revitalized highpower and I have no doubt that the same could happen with smallbore. They also have a large endowment to support its programs and are financially stable for many years to come. They also have a dedicated back room staff for statistics, registration, and other customer service issues. Rarely if there was an issue they made it right in the end. For these reasons I feel that they have the longevity to survive in the long run.

I applaud the ASSA for stepping up when the NRA had their many missteps and doing their part to keep smallbore alive. They have and currently do an excellent job but I worry about the long term viability when the current leaders decide to retire or step away from leadership roles due to age, health, etc.

I do not have a lot to say about the NRA. They have tradition and history behind them but at the same time they burned a lot of bridges a few years ago. A lot of lip service and promises broken and the end result is a fractured smallbore community.

Bottom line for me is exactly what was quoted, get together put the egos aside, plan for the future, plan for growth and have a unified front with one national championship.

rgibson wrote: ↑Fri Sep 02, 2022 8:39 am I took the survey yesterday via email.
I will add this: things will continue to go downhill until all the governing bodies get together without the egos and work on running one National Championship.

People have varying reasons for going to the Championship(s) they choose. I go to Perry because of the location, the history, the lower match fees and the cost of housing.

“We must, indeed, hang together, or we will all, most assuredly, hang separately.” Ben Franklin

Mike Carter wrote: ↑Sat Sep 03, 2022 8:08 am

pfiori wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 2:34 pm Why is the USAShooting National Championship not included in the last question of the survey?

When USA shooting begins running Men’s Prone and a 4 day 6400 they will be included in the conversation. As you well know, USA shooting is unique in they are our governing body with a voice at the USOC table. They were included in the type of shooting question to get a better understanding of the shooting demographic taking part in the survey.

Thanks for the question and thanks for taking the survey. Please share it.

Mike - not trying to stir up trouble, but your answer is pretty much prone oriented.
The 3-position part of the equation should have been considered to put USAS in the mix of championships.

While I would bet that prone does indeed the largest following, for many it's uninteresting.
For me as a youth coach I welcome and support any effort to get "kids" shooting in any type of competition.
Also a question I'd like to see pushed out there is why we see so many drop out of shooting - specifically after college?
Most of the shooters from collegiate teams I talk to after college are not interested in prone matches.
My guess would be the dropping of the position match in ISSF/Olympic formats ... maybe I'm off here.....

Your are not stirring up trouble at all. My answer to Peter was a response as to why USA Shooting Championships weren't included in the last question regarding which of the 3 National Championships were preferred. And you are correct, in that a prone championship was (while unspoken) part of the selection criteria. So that is why.

In regards to the question you would like to see pushed regarding collegiate shooters dropping out of the sport, this was discussed in our ASSA conference call last week. As an observation I've seen nothing in the way of a community forum, social media page, or website that has even made an attempt at reaching out to former collegiate athletes. Furthermore, the dearth of opportunities to compete, access to ranges where they live after after graduation, and someone pulling them back to the range in some form or fashion is just not there. Not to mention this: Every collegiate athlete that reached a skill level suitable for being a member of an NCAA team very likely has a competitive nature, with an outcome bar set higher than most. Shooting after graduation in an open 3-P championship, most likely outdoors, and not being able to replicate the performance level at their peak is probably part of the equation. "I'm not as good as I used to be so I don't want to do it anymore"
However, back to prone, I'm amazed at the prone scores of the NCAA teams. How poor they are. If the pervasive attitude of the coaches (and I am speculating here) is time devoted to shooting prone isn't valuable, then finding it uninteresting isn't surprising. If the average USA50 prone score was 200 or 199 I would agree, but it isn't. Based on a data dump from http://www.ncaarifle.org/Admin/DataExport for this years collegiate prone results only 23% of the fired prone scores to date are at that level and this includes some 5th year shooters. 96 is the average.

Ultimately it boils down to whether someone really wants to do it or not. If you don't, then there are many reasons to justify why you don't want to shoot after college. If you do, then you find a way to compete.

This would probably be a good senior thesis. "In a sport where youthful ability does not provide a substantial competitive advantage, why do NCAA rifle athletes abandon the sport after graduation?" And I would start by interviewing Peter Fiori, Bill Dutton, Erin Gestl, Mandy Otero, Paul Borthwick, Jeff Doerschler, Mike O'Connor, Cameron Zwart, Jon Speck and Paula Lambertz. While they may not appear at the top of the leaderboard, they are still competing in 3P. My apologies to post collegiate 3P shooters whom I've omitted. But no apologies to WCAP, ARMY or USA team members. As they are atop the leaderboards.

Speaking as a retired guy on a limited income, cost is a huge determinant. When everything is added up for a two day trip "out of town to somewhere," I'm looking at about 400 to 700 dollars. Can't afford it. We just had a 3200 point smallbore shoot cancelled in Cincinnati due to lack of participants. Seems that less and less people are taking up smallbore these days. Wonder if one day tournaments or more postal matches might be a subjects for discussion. Also, multiple associations make things more difficult and the "political correctness factor" isn't helping things either !!

Re-reading this thread and thinking about the mention of college rifle athletes leaving the sport. I wonder if the numbers are really that different than college athletes of other sports and their ability to advance after school. I don’t think the number of athletes is that high going from college ball into the NFL (for example) or am I wrong? Not a follower of any sports involving a ball.
I know our sport is different in that you don’t have to be on a team to compete. But, maybe that is part of the answer. The graduates may not be able see themselves continuing without “the team.” Also, a recent grad may be wrapped up in gainful employment to pay off the student debt. Not many if any full rides in shooting.

rgibson wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 8:55 am Re-reading this thread and thinking about the mention of college rifle athletes leaving the sport. I wonder if the numbers are really that different than college athletes of other sports and their ability to advance after school. I don’t think the number of athletes is that high going from college ball into the NFL (for example) or am I wrong? Not a follower of any sports involving a ball.
I know our sport is different in that you don’t have to be on a team to compete. But, maybe that is part of the answer. The graduates may not be able see themselves continuing without “the team.” Also, a recent grad may be wrapped up in gainful employment to pay off the student debt. Not many if any full rides in shooting.

I think comparing the drop rate of NCAA football athletes and using football is a poor reference. I'd think tennis and golf are more comparable to rifle in this context. Playing tennis and golf is much easier than trying to find a local range that provides a range suitable for 3-position precision rifle shooting.

Cost as it was mentioned is a big factor. Highly competitive shooting requires costly ammo and sometimes travel. A kid just out of college is not earning a whole lot. Another factor is burnout. I know many rifle athletes that were shooting 20 hours a week for 4-5 years have grown tired of the grind. Also mentioned before was the outdoor shooting on paper is hard to replicate the performance of indoor on electronics.

Plug any kind of sport in there you want. My point was shooting is not the only sport where athletes don’t continue after college for a multitude of reasons

40xguy wrote: ↑Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:46 pm Speaking as a retired guy on a limited income, cost is a huge determinant. When everything is added up for a two day trip "out of town to somewhere," I'm looking at about 400 to 700 dollars. Can't afford it. We just had a 3200 point smallbore shoot cancelled in Cincinnati due to lack of participants. Seems that less and less people are taking up smallbore these days. Wonder if one day tournaments or more postal matches might be a subjects for discussion. Also, multiple associations make things more difficult and the "political correctness factor" isn't helping things either !!

I am 80 miles from Cinci looking for places to compete and was never aware that your match was scheduled. Sometimes clubs do not help themselves in getting match schedules out into the shooting community.

bdutton wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 12:21 pm
Cost as it was mentioned is a big factor. Highly competitive shooting requires costly ammo and sometimes travel. A kid just out of college is not earning a whole lot. Another factor is burnout. I know many rifle athletes that were shooting 20 hours a week for 4-5 years have grown tired of the grind. Also mentioned before was the outdoor shooting on paper is hard to replicate the performance of indoor on electronics.

Burnout and cost is are the two big reasons I did not compete for years after graduating college. I went right back to coaching a junior team but this summer will likely be the first I regularly compete in Colorado's summer prone league. Its hard going from 20 hours of range practice and more on workouts with free ammo to funding it yourself. With my small sample size most ex-collegiate shooters dump their air gun immediately but retain the smallbore. Reaching out to them would not be bad idea.

Just stumbled across this thread and it's interesting. One of the main issues is that NCAA shooting is pretty much a dead end after college. It's a hobby sport as an adult; there's no money in it. IOC will kill off all smallbore shooting much sooner than most think, and that will leave Air and ( ugh ) laser.

At one point while traveling to events, I was asking many NCAA shooters what their college studies were focused on, and the answers were not so good. Many, far too many took "fluff" degrees so they could focus on their shooting, and I understand that. Problem is you're working behind a gunshop counter after school or taking some job just to pay the bills. NCAA shooting success isn't really a marketable skills to compete in the post-college world. I did meet some who were studying engineering, business, and science and that was excellent to hear. In 10 years of this I can think of only a handful who made the most out of that free education ride.

I say this because for most youth, junior, and NCAA shooters, it's a chapter in their life, not a life-long endeavor. It's not like golf or tennis. Not even like club soccer. Once they put down the rifle, especially air rifle is where I saw this, they never come back. This really sucks because air rifle creates the most level playing field in terms of equipment, and I had always thought it would grow. But it didn't. Went to the field target nationals in AZ a few years ago and saw fewer shooters there than at a local pickleball tournament, and they were some really good shooters - just not enough of them. Same guys as last year for the most part, very little new blood.

Once the Olympic gold carrot is gone, it's really gonna get ugly. More and more schools are dumping their shooting program with another announced last week if I remember correctly. I had my hands in this industry when UNR dumped their program. 4000 members at our shooting club and I haven't seen a prone or 3p rifle in a decade or more, other than my own. My heart is with smallbore silhouette, and that's also dying on the vine.

I think we should spin NRA off and let them focus on politics and spending member's dues on haircuts and expensive suits, and see if CMP can bring in new blood and rebuild into a single, organized national shooting program to support all the shooting sports.

Ranger Steve wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 4:49 pm
IOC will kill off all smallbore shooting much sooner than most think, and that will leave Air and ( ugh ) laser.

More details please

Ranger Steve wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 4:49 pm... Went to the field target nationals in AZ a few years ago and saw fewer shooters there than at a local pickleball tournament, and they were some really good shooters - just not enough of them. Same guys as last year for the most part, very little new blood...

... My heart is with smallbore silhouette, and that's also dying on the vine.

Well said, Ranger Steve.

I'm a Silhouette shooter that checks in over here on occasion to see what I can learn. You should know that there is some quiet momentum growing in the Silhouette community.

We are well aware of the issue of Juniors getting kicked to the curb once they age-out of their current programs (NCAA, 4H, etc.). We are actively working to provide a viable off-ramp for them to continue shooting into adulthood. It's a big problem but one we are working on.

The North American Silhouette Shooters Association (http://www.NASSAsilhouette.org) is gaining steam and recognition amongst the Silhouette crowd. Its intent is not to replace the NRA as the sanctioning organization, but to support the sport of Metallic Silhouette in ways that the NRA fails to. It also ties us together with our neighboring Silhouette communities in Mexico and Canada.

The Lapua Monarch Cup championship series is in its second year. In fact, I leave this week to travel to Cranbrook, BC for the Canadian Nationals which is the first leg of the series. Two weeks after that is the US/NRA Nationals, the second leg of the Monarch Cup. Then we travel down to Saltillo, Mexico in October for the final leg and awards.

Hopefully you'll reconsider your viewpoint on Silhouette. I know it's not what it used to be, but that doesn't mean it's heading to the grave.

Greetings Allen,

I've been following the Monarch Cup events and I think it's pretty interesting, but I'll pass on traveling to Mexico with a gun.

We've tried to revive smallbore silhouette here a few times, and it always sputters out. The lever guns are a bit more popular because they shoot the larger animals, but the true NRA SB rifle targets cause too many fits to attract new shooters. We have a few still trying, and I hope it catches at some point. Unfortunately, I've watched a few NRL guys try it with their $5000 rifles and most quit before they got to the rams. Turkeys seems to put the final nail in the ego coffin. I love me some turkeys; wished they loved me back.

I will check out NASSA here shortly.

s

Steve,

We put out half-scale animals along with the 1/5 scale for anyone new or just getting started. It gives them a chance to get used to the line calls, timing, moving positions, etc. while still hitting enough targets for it to be fun. If they choose to shoot at the small targets that’s ok too, but we don’t throw them in the deep end right away. It seems to be a good way to get them hooked on the game and not chase them off the first time out.