TargetTalk

I always seem to shoot a tighter group when practicing with a blank target.
Any tips on how to ignore the black when shooting for score?
I'm not aware of focus shifting from the front sight.

Are you using a sub-6 hold? If not, start with that.

Do you have shooting glasses? if you add +0.75 diopters to your normal prescription, you will be able to focus on your front sight better, and it will make it much harder to focus on the target.

Having a small orange chalk mark on the back of your front sight can also help you stayed focused there. Once your brain gets used to it, rub it off & put on a new one.

Gwhite wrote: ↑Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:10 pm Are you using a sub-6 hold? If not, start with that.

Do you have shooting glasses? if you add +0.75 diopters to your normal prescription, you will be able to focus on your front sight better, and it will make it much harder to focus on the target.

Having a small orange chalk mark on the back of your front sight can also help you stayed focused there. Once your brain gets used to it, rub it off & put on a new one.

Yes, sub 6 hold.
I have regular glasses, not shooting ones but I'm overdue another eye test.
The target is blurred and front sight in focus.
When you say a small mark do you mean along the top of the front sight?
My theory is that the black is amplifying my perceived movement and distracting me from executing the shot even though the sight picture is good

Just any sort of random splodge of chalk on the back will do. The idea is to give you something more definitive & irregular to focus on than a boring black rectangle. If it isn't in SHARP focus when the shot breaks, that's your problem. How effective it is may depend on the range lighting. ISSF rules have recommended light levels for the firing line, but many ranges are so poorly lit that seeing the chalk mark can be difficult. Also, some sights have the back tilted to the rear, which will put the mark in shadow.

Don't completely cover the back, just use a mark big enough to see & focus on. Your brain can ignore an orange rectangle almost as easily as a black one...

Lots of shooters THINK they are focused on their front sight because the target is fuzzy. They actually focus somewhere in between the front sight & the target, with their focus kind of wandering back & forth in no-mans land...

If you wear regular glasses, you can get clip-on lenses that will bring your focus closer to your front sight:

https://shootingsight.com/product/clip-on-flip-lens/

Gwhite wrote: ↑Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:07 pm Just any sort of random splodge of chalk on the back will do. The idea is to give you something more definitive & irregular to focus on than a boring black rectangle. If it isn't in SHARP focus when the shot breaks, that's your problem. How effective it is may depend on the range lighting. ISSF rules have recommended light levels for the firing line, but many ranges are so poorly lit that seeing the chalk mark can be difficult. Also, some sights have the back tilted to the rear, which will put the mark in shadow.

Don't completely cover the back, just use a mark big enough to see & focus on. Your brain can ignore an orange rectangle almost as easily as a black one...

Lots of shooters THINK they are focused on their front sight because the target is fuzzy. They actually focus somewhere in between the front sight & the target, with their focus kind of wandering back & forth in no-mans land...

If you wear regular glasses, you can get clip-on lenses that will bring your focus closer to your front sight:

https://shootingsight.com/product/clip-on-flip-lens/

I don't have an angled front sight and shoot outdoors so seeing the mark shouldn't be a problem.
Thanks for the suggestion!

My guess ( and that's all it is ), is that when you are firing on a blank target, you are concentrating on a good release.
When you add in a target, you are trying to make the release happen when you know it will be a ten. Resulting in a jerk. Maybe only a little jerk, but still enough to enlarge the group.

Gwhite wrote: ↑Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:07 pm Lots of shooters THINK they are focused on their front sight because the target is fuzzy. They actually focus somewhere in between the front sight & the target, with their focus kind of wandering back & forth in no-mans land...

If you wear regular glasses, you can get clip-on lenses that will bring your focus closer to your front sight:

https://shootingsight.com/product/clip-on-flip-lens/

that seems to be my problem, difficult to keep focus on the front sight— somewhere in the no-mans-land. I am 47, I also have problem with my near vision. Could this be the reason?

Gwhite wrote: ↑Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:10 pm . . . a small orange chalk mark on the back of your front sight can also help you stayed focused there. Once your brain gets used to it, rub it off & put on a new one.

He's right. Put on a new front sight - after you ruin the first one with orange chalk.

emre-nur wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:36 pm

Gwhite wrote: ↑Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:07 pm Lots of shooters THINK they are focused on their front sight because the target is fuzzy. They actually focus somewhere in between the front sight & the target, with their focus kind of wandering back & forth in no-mans land...

If you wear regular glasses, you can get clip-on lenses that will bring your focus closer to your front sight:

https://shootingsight.com/product/clip-on-flip-lens/

that seems to be my problem, difficult to keep focus on the front sight— somewhere in the no-mans-land. I am 47, I also have problem with my near vision. Could this be the reason?

Sounds likely. You may be suffering the early signs of presbyopia, which is when the eye loses its ability to focus close in. One common recommendation for shooting is to use an out of date pair of reading glasses. Nowadays, you can get "computer glasses" that have about the right correction.

I've been reading old posts and came across this: http://targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=8153

I've experienced similar results. Would this be a sign that one perhaps should try (what I seem to remember being called) a "deep sub 6 o"clock" hold, that is with your sights down in the region of the 4-3 ring?

You initially stated you shoot better groups on blank target vs. target bull. When you’re aiming at a blank target you do not notice your movement as much as you do with the target bull. Trigger control is normally the culprit. You are probably not maintaining a consistent pull and you are helping the the shots break. Typical result is larger group. The blank target drill takes out two things; score and sight picture. Sight alignment is typically easy but adding the aiming point of a target inhibits trigger squeeze when less than perfect. That’s why accepting your hold is vital. If you think about it, you can be slightly high, low, left or right and still shoot 10’s. But trigger control can screw that up in a hurry. Also if you decide to shoot sub 6 hold watch for vertical stringing. It’s common. Most average shooters don’t do well with sub 6.
I spend 75-80% of my dry firing time on blank wall and only use aiming point the rest of the time. I believe you can master your fundamentals better that way.
Jon

Nice reply Jon.

Im very new to this silliness of a/p and blank target shooting was also suggested to me.

Regards

Andrew

Jon Eulette wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:45 pm .. Also if you decide to shoot sub 6 hold watch for vertical stringing. It’s common. Most average shooters don’t do well with sub 6.
Jon

The vertical stringing usually occurs when the using a 6 hold or sub 6 that is too close to the black, the sight and black tend to mend giving you a vertical string.
"Would this be a sign that one perhaps should try (what I seem to remember being called) a "deep sub 6 o"clock" hold, that is with your sights down in the region of the 4-3 ring?'
When thinking about sub 6 hold do not think about 4-3 ring (lookoing at target).
Use sight picture with equal light gaps Side bars and top bar equal).

For a decade or two, the "sub-six" hold was the secret weapon of the collegiate team I was on, and am now helping coach. We frequently beat the various service academies (West Point, Navy, Air Force), who were all using six o'clock holds. I believe the NRA still promotes the six o'clock hold for target shooting.

I went to a coaching workshop at the US Olympic Training Center several years ago, and they mentioned the idea of the "equal gap" sight picture. The goal is to teach your brain to try to achieve the highly symmetric image as a whole, and not to think of it as three separate pieces. This helps to reduce the complexity of the problem & offloads your brain a bit.

I am new to AP - but this (sub 6-o'clock) is what I've been practicing. I've read that pure 6-o'clock hold will "blur the distinction between the front sight and the target" and make it more difficult to get a true aiming picture. After trying it a few times - it simply made sense to me. I did need to widen the rear sight - but since then it's been a little easier.

Funny thing is (and I regularly miss more than my share) when you do get it right - I can tell before even looking at the result. I think the whole concept of doing things exactly the same every time is infinitely harder than it sounds.

Gwhite wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:49 am ........ This helps to reduce the complexity of the problem & offloads your brain a bit.

atomicgale wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:10 pm

Gwhite wrote: ↑Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:10 pm . . . a small orange chalk mark on the back of your front sight can also help you stayed focused there. Once your brain gets used to it, rub it off & put on a new one.

He's right. Put on a new front sight - after you ruin the first one with orange chalk.

How is chalk going to ruin a sight?

Ade C wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:43 pm

atomicgale wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:10 pm

Gwhite wrote: ↑Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:10 pm . . . a small orange chalk mark on the back of your front sight can also help you stayed focused there. Once your brain gets used to it, rub it off & put on a new one.

He's right. Put on a new front sight - after you ruin the first one with orange chalk.

How is chalk going to ruin a sight?

I think he's pulling a "Rover". I've used this technique for over 10 years on dozens of pistols for the college team I help coach. I've never seen the slightest indication it's damaged a thing. Maybe he has more abrasive chalk than I buy...

"You initially stated you shoot better groups on blank target vs. target bull. When you’re aiming at a blank target you do not notice your movement as much as you do with the target bull. Trigger control is normally the culprit. You are probably not maintaining a consistent pull and you are helping the the shots break. Typical result is larger group. The blank target drill takes out two things; score and sight picture. Sight alignment is typically easy but adding the aiming point of a target inhibits trigger squeeze when less than perfect. That’s why accepting your hold is vital. If you think about it, you can be slightly high, low, left or right and still shoot 10’s. But trigger control can screw that up in a hurry. Also if you decide to shoot sub 6 hold watch for vertical stringing. It’s common. Most average shooters don’t do well with sub 6.
I spend 75-80% of my dry firing time on blank wall and only use aiming point the rest of the time. I believe you can master your fundamentals better that way."
Jon
Jon do you shoot center hold in 10 Meter? Also does your trigger have a lighter 1st stage?
Stan

porkchop wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:40 pm " Also if you decide to shoot sub 6 hold watch for vertical stringing. It’s common. Most average shooters don’t do well with sub 6.

I will say it again, vertical stringing is usually trying to hold too close to the black.
Most average shooters have a 6 o'clock hold rather than sub-6.
Try increasing the light gaps to equal gaps.

Try this as a ideal sight picture.
Foresight 70% of apparent target black.
Foresight ratio 2/1 ie. half width light each side of foresight.
Foresight height adjusted to appear as a square.
Equal light gaps at sides and above foresight. The secret is focusing on the square.

David M wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:05 pm

porkchop wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:40 pm " Also if you decide to shoot sub 6 hold watch for vertical stringing. It’s common. Most average shooters don’t do well with sub 6.

I will say it again, vertical stringing is usually trying to hold too close to the black.
Most average shooters have a 6 o'clock hold rather than sub-6.
Try increasing the light gaps to equal gaps.

Try this as a ideal sight picture.
Foresight 70% of apparent target black.
Foresight ratio 2/1 ie. half width light each side of foresight.
Foresight height adjusted to appear as a square.
Equal light gaps at sides and above foresight.
sight 70%.jpg
The secret is focusing on the square.

There is no better diagram for shooting than the top picture of David M's post above. That's what everyone should strive for imo.