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Is This Trigger Shoe Legal for 10M AP?
Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 2:44 pm
by McMadCow
Like the title says, trying to figure out the legality of something like this for 10M AP. A few sites have this model and a similar one from Shooting Equipment. The description says can be used on a pistol or rifle, but I'm not so sure. One of the trigger shoes in question:
https://www.bulletcentral.com/product/a ... -or-green/
My confusion with this one and the model from SE, is that neither of them have the ridge on the finger pad for taking the 500 gram measuring weight. Obviously the blade will still hold the measuring weight without it, but will a pistol with one of these fail tech without the ridge in the center?
I got my LP500 in February and I'm still not in love with the factory trigger blade. The gun replaced my FWB P44, which had more degrees of adjustment, including canting the pad for the way my finger crosses the trigger. It looks like something like this replacement blade would be what I need, but I don't want to get it if it's not going to pass tech. Any insight would be appreciated. Thanks!
Re: Is This Trigger Shoe Legal for 10M AP?
Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:29 pm
by Rover
Does the Range Officer tell you to "Pull your finger out!", and stop trying to buy points?
Re: Is This Trigger Shoe Legal for 10M AP?
Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:51 pm
by McMadCow
You heard it here, folks. Getting a personalized fit is "buying points". A REAL shooter just shows up with a Red Ryder and aces the course of fire.
Re: Is This Trigger Shoe Legal for 10M AP?
Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 4:05 pm
by spektr
There is NO requirement for a weight groove on the trigger. In fact, the weight groove is a way to end up with an illegal light trigger that passes inspection. There are pictures of Korean shooters with very long triggers with their fingers below the weight grooves which increases leverage, reducing pull weight. Those shooters are at risk of a DQ if the jury would measure them correctly....
Re: Is This Trigger Shoe Legal for 10M AP?
Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 4:16 pm
by McMadCow
Awesome, thanks for the info. For some reason I could have sworn there was discussion about weight grooves a while back, probably what you were referring to. Sounds like if I get one of these I'll need to make sure I set my weight where my fingers presses in order to stay out of trouble.
Re: Is This Trigger Shoe Legal for 10M AP?
Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 6:18 pm
by Coolmeester
McMadCow wrote: ↑Tue Sep 07, 2021 4:16 pm
Awesome, thanks for the info. For some reason I could have sworn there was discussion about weight grooves a while back, probably what you were referring to. Sounds like if I get one of these I'll need to make sure I set my weight where my fingers presses in order to stay out of trouble.
No. Trigger weight is measured from the center of your trigger shoe. So if there is a groove it must be in the middle of the trigger shoe. It is very recommendable to file some kind of a groove if there isn't any - so everyone, including you puts the weight exactly in the same place and you do not need so much to add extra weight for security. After that you place your triggerfinger absolutely wherever you want while shooting.
Re: Is This Trigger Shoe Legal for 10M AP?
Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 6:34 pm
by David M
- Trigger.jpg (37.23 KiB) Viewed 2346 times
Trigger weight is measured near the centre of the trigger.
The trigger can be a single long blade (measure at 50%) or
can be made up of a longvertical trigger bar with a trigger pad.
These are measered at 50% of the pad (usually you cannot get your finger
on the bar, only the pad.
A very long trigger has no advantage as pull is the same at finger contact point.
The disadvantage is increased horizontal movement for same angle movement.
Oh,by the way.
The
Red Triggers are faster, not the Blue or Green triggers.
Re: Is This Trigger Shoe Legal for 10M AP?
Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:30 pm
by spektr
Here's the Morini Trigger dodge.
The rule book clearly shows that the trigger will be measured in such a way as to replicate the finger position as the diagrams above show.
The Morini trigger has a notch at half trigger height, and the equipment inspectors use it......
There is a very slight secondary trigger curve where the shooters actually place their fingers.
The rule is quite specific. They are measuring the trigger where the finger is placed, not at an arbitrary notch location...
The Morini measurement notch is NOT coincident with finger placement
the Morini trigger notch should actually be placed in the center of the secondary finger placement curve that is clearly visible in the photo.
THAT is what the rule book requires, and Morini intentionally flouts the rule.
The end result of the misapplication of the measurement is that Morini pistols so equipped are setting a much lighter let off point than the rules specify.......
The prior poster stated that the finger position on the trigger does not matter. That would be correct if it was a parallelogram, but it isn't one. The trigger/ trigger bar pivots on a pin giving relative motion to release the sear. All levers, which the trigger becomes since it pivots on a single point, generate more leverage the farther you get from the pivot point. trigger pull weight is reduced as the distance from the fulcrum increases.
- 02-25-16-01-Morini-162MI-pistol-trigger.jpg (31.65 KiB) Viewed 2280 times
Here is a trigger manufactured to measure trigger weight coincident with finger placement.
- 102166_ahg_Abzugszuengel_Mod-_Sensive_2_fuer_MoriniSteyr_1.jpg (5.94 KiB) Viewed 2277 times
Re: Is This Trigger Shoe Legal for 10M AP?
Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 12:51 am
by David M
spektr wrote: ↑Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:30 pm
Here's the Morini Trigger dodge.
The rule book clearly shows that the trigger will be measured in such a way as to replicate the finger position as the diagrams above show.
The Morini trigger has a notch at half trigger height, and the equipment inspectors use it......
There is a very slight secondary trigger curve where the shooters actually place their fingers.
The rule is quite specific. They are measuring the trigger where the finger is placed, not at an arbitrary notch location...
The Morini measurement notch is NOT coincident with finger placement
the Morini trigger notch should actually be placed in the center of the secondary finger placement curve that is clearly visible in the photo.
THAT is what the rule book requires, and Morini intentionally flouts the rule.
The end result of the misapplication of the measurement is that Morini pistols so equipped are setting a much lighter let off point than the rules specify.......
The prior poster stated that the finger position on the trigger does not matter. That would be correct if it was a parallelogram, but it isn't one. The trigger/ trigger bar pivots on a pin giving relative motion to release the sear. All levers, which the trigger becomes since it pivots on a single point, generate more leverage the farther you get from the pivot point. trigger pull weight is reduced as the distance from the fulcrum increases.
02-25-16-01-Morini-162MI-pistol-trigger.jpg
Here is a trigger manufactured to measure trigger weight coincident with finger placement.
102166_ahg_Abzugszuengel_Mod-_Sensive_2_fuer_MoriniSteyr_1.jpg
The Morini Trigger groove is legal.
Being a solid trigger the whole trigger is considered the trigger.
The groove is at 50% of the total trigger length.
No were in the rules does it mention finger placement.
The problem is in the defination of the "trigger".
- trigger.jpg (54.61 KiB) Viewed 2257 times
"Trigger Pull Test
A weight with a metal or rubber knife-edge must be
used. A roller on the trigger weight is not permitted.
A dead weight must be used with no springs or other
devices.
The weight of the trigger pull must be measured, with
the test weight suspended near the middle of the
trigger (see illustrations) and the barrel held
vertically. The weight must be placed on a horizontal
surface and lifted clear of the surface. The tests must
be conducted by Equipment Control officials. The
minimum weight of the trigger pull must be
maintained throughout the competition. A maximum
of three (3) attempts to lift the weight is allowed. If it
does not pass it may only be resubmitted after
adjustment. When testing air or gas actuated pistols,
the propellant charge must be activated. The trigger
pull test should be conducted on the chief range
officers table or at the side of the range.
8.4.2.1"
Re: Is This Trigger Shoe Legal for 10M AP?
Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:10 am
by spektr
Respectfully, I think you are missing it....... There are 2 different measurable radii Morini Trigger Blade shown. The 2 radii are of different values. The upper Radii is not for finger placement. The Lower radii IS for finger placement. Placing a measurement notch in a place other than the middle of the actual finger placement radius is incorrect. The second trigger image shows the correct location of a measurement in the middle of the finger placement radius........ ONE of these triggers is wrong. If we accept your premise that the notch goes in the middle of the trigger AND the entire length from the mounting rail counts as being the trigger, the second illustration is wrong. If we look at the rule book illustration AND accept your premise that the entire trigger length counts, then the rule book shows the incorrect location for the measurement to be taken as it does NOT consider the entire trigger length, but in fact the finger contact area.
Unfortunately for both of us, the definitive answer cannot be deduced from the rule book because it is an absolute shit piece of technical writing.
Re: Is This Trigger Shoe Legal for 10M AP?
Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:52 am
by Coolmeester
spektr wrote: ↑Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:10 am
Respectfully, I think you are missing it....... There are 2 different measurable radii Morini Trigger Blade shown. The 2 radii are of different values. The upper Radii is not for finger placement. The Lower radii IS for finger placement. Placing a measurement notch in a place other than the middle of the actual finger placement radius is incorrect. The second trigger image shows the correct location of a measurement in the middle of the finger placement radius........ ONE of these triggers is wrong. If we accept your premise that the notch goes in the middle of the trigger AND the entire length from the mounting rail counts as being the trigger, the second illustration is wrong. If we look at the rule book illustration AND accept your premise that the entire trigger length counts, then the rule book shows the incorrect location for the measurement to be taken as it does NOT consider the entire trigger length, but in fact the finger contact area.
Unfortunately for both of us, the definitive answer cannot be deduced from the rule book because it is an absolute shit piece of technical writing.
In morini case you don't have to watch second illustration at all. Only third. It isn't so hard...
Re: Is This Trigger Shoe Legal for 10M AP?
Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:18 am
by David M
Until you can change the rules, we are stuck with it regardless of where you stick your finger.
Finger placement is not in the rule.
Re: Is This Trigger Shoe Legal for 10M AP?
Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:27 pm
by McMadCow
I ended up ordering the Anschutz trigger because it was from a place in the US and I didn't want to wait a month for it to arrive. I had to modify the connection point to get it to clamp down tightly, but it fits fine otherwise. I shot my P44 for 7 years and I got used to the highly adjustable trigger face, so this is a much welcome upgrade to the Walther. The fit is now very seamless and I no longer notice the trigger face pressing across my finger. The build quality is very nice and I'd recommend it as a pistol trigger as long as you're comfortable with taking a Dremel to the clamp.