TargetTalk

Quick background first.

I'm 27 and a new shooter. I've taken two classes. One was general pistol safety, form, and instruction that lasted about 4 hours a year ago. The other was a day long general course to learn the same topics as the previous class, and then conceal and carry courses. Outside of these classes I've done some self study, but only put a couple hundred rounds down range.

I want to get more serious about becoming a better shot with the pistol. For self defense reasons I want to grow comfortable with my 9mm. Since I'm hardwired to enjoy structure and planning, I decided to use the NRA Conventional Bullseye Pistol Qualification to track my progress. To clarify, I'm not actually getting into competitive shooting, just want a way to benchmark myself.

However to benchmark myself I need a sense of what is normal to tell if I'm behind what I should expect out of myself.

What progress would you expect out of a new shooter for the bullseye in 6 or 12 months? How many rounds would you suggest per week/month?

Ignore all advice that doesn't emanate from Rover.

Here's what you have so eagerly awaiting. Buy a Steyr LP5 or LP50 and a tub of Vogel or a case of RWS Basic pellets. Use iron sights.

Start practicing Slow, Timed, Rapid, until you can shoot in the high 80s consistently. THEN go to your iron-sighted .22 auto.

The NRA can tell you their Classification based on your average scores in a 900 match. Easy-peasy!

Your progress? Who knows. You shouldn't have too much problem hitting Marksman or Sharpshooter. After that????

I agree with Rover, I know he taught me how to shoot air pistol.

If you are not able to get into air pistol first, then try the .22lr pistol. Jumping into Bullseye with a centerfire pistol is very tuff. Often shooters give up because they are not improving as much as they would like. Invest in a good pistol, S&W 41, a vintage High Standard. Check out the Bullseye-L chat site, lots of pistols for sale and good advise.

Then shoot , a lot. You will see improvement. Have fun.

First season average: 202 Hi-standard with iron sights
Second season average: 254 Hi-standard with red dot
(Bought a Pardini in between seasons 2 and 3)
Third season average: 274
Fourth season average (about to start, my goal is 285)

I am 61 years old by the way.

First off, forget about spending $2500 on an air pistol. That's just stupid at this point. You asked about bullseye, and while I agree shooting air pistol will help you get better at bullseye, spending that much money as a beginner to try it out is just silly.

Go shoot as much as you can/want. find a group that focuses on Marksmanship in your area, if you can't find one, ask questions here or other BE based forums.

Track your scores and see how you do. Stay positive and NEVER obsess on what your doing wrong. Focus on what you do right. Might be a bit thin in the beginning, but keep at it and stay positive.

Instead of asking "how much should I improve in...", ask what are YOUR goals? To be a "better" shooter, or make High Master in X number of years. Everyone is different and progress comes to each of us in our own time. But having a guiding goal is a good start.

Unlike a pistol, you will be able to recover all your money if you decide to resell your AP.

Consider that you will be able to buy about SEVEN cases of pellets for the price of a case of .22s, not to mention range fees and travel time to shoot those .22s. You will be able to shoot your AP at home at any time and won't be exposed to John Wilk wannabees.

When you get it together, go shoot a few Precision Pistol matches and find out where you stand.

Rover wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:10 pm Unlike a pistol, you will be able to recover all your money if you decide to resell your AP.

Not likely... maybe 70, maybe 80%, which on a $2500 is about $500-$750. Which is the cost am a mid range 22 pistol...

You should get to know what “Bullseye” aka Precision Pistol really is all about. Look around your area for a club, or range that may have a league and go introduce yourself and see what’s involved, talk with some of the shooters, ask questions.
The discipline has specific rules and requires you to conform to a structured course of fire. Most regular competitors will use a decent .22, and a 1911 .45 5” pistol for the Centerfire and 45 portions of a full 2700 match. (A 2700 match consists of 3 matches: .22 -900, Centerfire/45-900, and .45 -900) You will need an accurate .22 pistol at minimum as many matches will allow .22 only. You don’t need to spend a lot of money. A used one in decent shape will give you a good start. Perhaps even someone could lend you a pistol to try your hand at it to get a feel. There are plenty of options, iron sights, or Optics (Red dot). At your age you should be able to see the sights well enough to compete.

Shooting your 9mm (considered a “Centerfire” pistol) is ok, but unless you are following the proscribed course of fire for Bullseye, how can you expect to track your progress? To add to this, shooting matches will enable you to get classified with a rating, either thru the NRA, or the CMP depending on the match. This way you will be able to see your progress.

Note that there are additional types of matches called EIC, and Service Pistol. That infos’ for another post. http://www.thebullseyeclinic.com

Well then, there's this:

http://targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=64488

Rover wrote: ↑Tue Sep 07, 2021 7:49 am Well then, there's this:

http://targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=64488

If only!!

If you can’t do a course like the one suggested, I’m new to bullseye and precision shooting, and here’s a very simple way to judge progress as a new shooter. Set aside what anyone else can do or does. First, they may have “done it”, but they may not do it again. Progress always starts from where you are, at this moment, on THIS day. Your progress. Not progress against others. Nothing you can do about them.

Pick up,the USMC Pistol Team manual and a .22. Or good pellet gun. See how long it takes you to complete lesson one. If a week, well you’re probably already pretty good. A couple months, whatever.

Another suggestion is just start shooting for groups. At 25 and if you can, 50 yards. 10 shots, not three. Yes, the first groups may not look like groups. And you may miss the paper completely. Shoot at a blank piece of paper, not a bullseye. Doesn’t matter what the score is, just the diameter. Do that a few times. Figure out your average day diameter. This is basically USMC lesson one - shooting at a blank piece of paper. Get a baseline.

Then set a goal to shrink that group. Take a photo of every group. Measure every group. Some days they’ll get smaller. Others bigger. Check back in in a month. Then three months. The overall trend should be toward smaller. A wiggly line on a graph that goes down.

Dry fire in between. At a blank wall. If you can get a session of live fire a week, that’s okay. But I personally don’t shoot past where I’m shooting 100 rounds or so. I don’t shoot when I’m getting tired.

hope that helps.

Fotomaniac wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 9:57 pm You should get to know what “Bullseye” aka Precision Pistol really is all about. Look around your area for a club, or range that may have a league and go introduce yourself and see what’s involved, talk with some of the shooters, ask questions.
The discipline has specific rules and requires you to conform to a structured course of fire. Most regular competitors will use a decent .22, and a 1911 .45 5” pistol for the Centerfire and 45 portions of a full 2700 match. (A 2700 match consists of 3 matches: .22 -900, Centerfire/45-900, and .45 -900) You will need an accurate .22 pistol at minimum as many matches will allow .22 only. You don’t need to spend a lot of money. A used one in decent shape will give you a good start. Perhaps even someone could lend you a pistol to try your hand at it to get a feel. There are plenty of options, iron sights, or Optics (Red dot). At your age you should be able to see the sights well enough to compete.

Note that there are additional types of matches called EIC, and Service Pistol. That infos’ for another post. http://www.thebullseyeclinic.com

Be advised that about 100% of all BE shoots will let you shoot a .22 for the entire 2700 if it is a 2700 total match. You don't have to shoot the full 2700 of course. The NRA has carved out that category to get more shooters PERIOD! Maybe the new shooter will EVENTUALLY go with CF and .45. The EICs are strictly a 900 match.

Visit a match, chat up the shooters and Match Director or anyone actually (we don't bite). Just say your new and considering BE with .22 first. Likely a shooter there will have an extra .22 pistol and ammo and the bonus is that the pistol will already sighted in for both 25 yard and 50 yard.

Save the (current) headache of CF and .45 reloading. Even then when the current components issues pass, just keep shooting the .22. It is a lot more fun than CF and .45.(IMHO). Also shooting a .22 minimizes the risk of elbow and shoulder maladies long term. Might be age dependent though.
my2cents

Xman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:40 pm

Fotomaniac wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 9:57 pm You should get to know what “Bullseye” aka Precision Pistol really is all about. Look around your area for a club, or range that may have a league and go introduce yourself and see what’s involved, talk with some of the shooters, ask questions.
The discipline has specific rules and requires you to conform to a structured course of fire. Most regular competitors will use a decent .22, and a 1911 .45 5” pistol for the Centerfire and 45 portions of a full 2700 match. (A 2700 match consists of 3 matches: .22 -900, Centerfire/45-900, and .45 -900) You will need an accurate .22 pistol at minimum as many matches will allow .22 only. You don’t need to spend a lot of money. A used one in decent shape will give you a good start. Perhaps even someone could lend you a pistol to try your hand at it to get a feel. There are plenty of options, iron sights, or Optics (Red dot). At your age you should be able to see the sights well enough to compete.

Note that there are additional types of matches called EIC, and Service Pistol. That infos’ for another post. http://www.thebullseyeclinic.com

Be advised that about 100% of all BE shoots will let you shoot a .22 for the entire 2700 if it is a 2700 total match. You don't have to shoot the full 2700 of course. The NRA has carved out that category to get more shooters PERIOD! Maybe the new shooter will EVENTUALLY go with CF and .45. The EICs are strictly a 900 match.

Visit a match, chat up the shooters and Match Director or anyone actually (we don't bite). Just say your new and considering BE with .22 first. Likely a shooter there will have an extra .22 pistol and ammo and the bonus is that the pistol will already sighted in for both 25 yard and 50 yard.

Save the (current) headache of CF and .45 reloading. Even then when the current components issues pass, just keep shooting the .22. It is a lot more fun than CF and .45.(IMHO). Also shooting a .22 minimizes the risk of elbow and shoulder maladies long term. Might be age dependent though.
my2cents

This^^^

I have shot two matches, just the 22 portion to get the feel. Never met a more inviting group. BE shooters love to see new faces. If I was there and you showed up, I’d loan you a pistol and ammo. It’s a point of pride and honor, imho.

Btw, at my first match…
Me looking at the 50 yard targets, in a worried tone: “man, that target is really far!”

Match director, with a wry smile: “if that was a bear you wouldn’t think it was very far”.

I play that in my head whenever I shoot. Best little piece of mental advice I’ve gotten.

[

Xman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:40 pm The EICs are strictly a 900 match.

Hmm, I shot a 2700 yesterday here in Connecticut, and there were two EIC's, both 300 only. One .22 and one .45. Slow at 50 yards, timed and rapid at 25 yards. 10 shots each

Open sights only, the .45 with jacketed ammo only.

Maybe it's different elsewhere.

Dear Karol:

I have had the opportunity to introduce a number of new shooters to Bullseye Competition. You asked what can you expect as a new shooter and going to regular matches is a lot of fun.

First off, someone recommended the USMC pistol book. It is a very good resource but as a new shooter, you should read the first part on the fundamentals, Stance, Grip, Breath, Sight Alignment, and Trigger control. I would not worry about the second part with all the exercises until you get a little more experience. My personal opinion is that those exercises, while good for a experienced bullseye shooter, are primarily designed for a trainer to weed out the top shooters from a collection of possible candidates for further development.

Secondly, I would start a log book and record your scores in a journal. I use a engineers field book, a type of survey book that surveyors used to use to record information in the field. They are readily available on line and are inexpensive, durable, and have heavy paper that will withstand rough usage. You can get creative and graph or chart your progress over time which will encourage you to improve.

Thirdly, to track your progress, find out the ratings for Sharpshooter, Tyrol, Marksman, Expert, Master, and High Master. You will probably start out in the Marksman or Tyrol category and after a year start posting scores that are close to Expert.

For what it is worth, Expert is a 90% score, IE, you have a aggregate score of 90 percent of the total possible score or a 270 score in a 300 point match. Master level is 95%, and High Master is 97.5%. I would list the others but I do not have them handy at the moment.

You will find out that starting out, your performance will improve dramatically with experience, and most shooters set a goal of a expert level score as a milestone. Some shooters get a expert level score rather quickly although most that I have seen will take a year or longer to record their first expert score. Make sure you celebrate your first expert score when it happens, it is a worthy accomplishment!

Do not get discouraged as you progress, your scores will vary from match to match but if you are graphing or charting your scores, you should see a steady improvement up to expert as you progress.

Once you post your first expert score, your next goal is to get a expert rating which means that you score a 90% for 240 continuous shots in competition (theoretically). In actuality, you will need to post a expert score for the average of the season for the NRA to recognize your rating.

Other goals:

When you get your first expert score recorded, take a picture of it, frame it, and hang it on your wall for inspiration. Other milestones are your first hundred point score in timed and rapid fire, save the target, date it, have your teammates sign it, frame it and hang it on the wall next to your first expert score. Next will be your high slow fire target. Currently, my high slow fire is 98 and it is posted on my wall as well. It will be accompanied by my first 99 when I get it and the first 100 when that comes as well.

Hope this helps and let us know how you are doing.

Regards,
Crankster

Cranky/Geo,

Yes indeed. Right above my desk I have a binder clip with every 100 target I have ever shot, plus my 50' 294 personal best, and that elusive 50' B-2 100 shot July 20, 2020 at Cape Gun Works, Hyannis, Mass. The most amazing thing about that slow fire 100 is that I followed it up with a 94-4x timed and a 97-2x rapid. My mentor told me he would have fallen apart from the thrill of the 100 slow, especially a 50 foooter.

It is very motivating to me whenever I can clip another 100 into the binder.

Yesterday I shot my first 100 in a match, a 25 yard timed fire .22. Shoulda pulled it, but stapled over the top as it was part of my first 2700. Every other 100 for me has been practice, this one I got a high five from the scorer and from the Range Officer. It was, as we say in New England, wicked sweet.

Every small victory should be celebrated. I remember well my first target when all 10 were in the black, it was not that long ago.

MikeMargolis wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:18 pm [

Xman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:40 pm The EICs are strictly a 900 match.

Hmm, I shot a 2700 yesterday here in Connecticut, and there were two EIC's, both 300 only. One .22 and one .45. Slow at 50 yards, timed and rapid at 25 yards. 10 shots each

Open sights only, the .45 with jacketed ammo only.

Maybe it's different elsewhere.

I had mis typed...EIC are all 300point matches, 10 SF, 10TF and 10 RF. Brain was not engaged. TY for correcting me.

crankythunder wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:26 am
First off, someone recommended the USMC pistol book. It is a very good resource but as a new shooter, you should read the first part on the fundamentals, Stance, Grip, Breath, Sight Alignment, and Trigger control. I would not worry about the second part with all the exercises until you get a little more experience. My personal opinion is that those exercises, while good for a experienced bullseye shooter, are primarily designed for a trainer to weed out the top shooters from a collection of possible candidates for further development.

That would be me. And I’m glad to read your take Crankster. I’m still stuck on the first lesson! Then again I think that it has helped my mindset and to begin rethinking how this game works.

Thanks for commenting on the manual and for the other sage advice. Thanks for sharing your knowledge!

RodJ and MikeMargolis:

Thank you for the support. As to the original poster, it can be tough separating the commandments and dictation from the accomplished shooters, as opposed to those who really enjoy watching new shooters improve and enjoy this sport.

I might not ever get to a master level again but the most satisfaction I get is watching/coaching new shooters chart their progress and share in their victories. If done properly, this is a highly social sport and any encouragement we can do has got to be a positive influence. Some people say that it is a cut tab a, insert slot b, and stuff it in the bottle and you will achieve master level but it is a unique combination of science, training, psychology, and attitude that is required to excel in this discipline. Enjoy the ride, it is most rewarding.

I am fortunate to enjoy precision pistol a couple times a week, applaud each and every one of you that encourage new shooters to share the rewards we experience, and shudder at those of you that are less then encouraging to the youngsters who are so crucial to keep precision pistol alive.

To the original poster, see if you can borrow other competitors firearms for the short term. Get a idea which one is right for you and then snag one when you get the chance. Buy lots of ammo, and practice with the warm glow of "Recoil Therapy". Go to every match you can and soak in the comradery. Ignore the detractors because they are not worth your time. Compliment the guy next to you when he posts a nice target. Offer thanks to the range officer and the facility hosting the match. The satisfaction and rewards will be unbelievable.

Lastly, if you are ever in Michigan take the time to shoot me a private message. Would be honored to have you shooting beside me in competition. We got a spot on the line for ya.

Regards,
Crankster