TargetTalk

This is my opinion. All these comments are based on personal experience with the teams I coach. The discussion with parents on what to buy ALWAYS starts with "what is your budget?" Refilling the AP to practice must be included in that budget.
Please contribute your experience to this discussion.

FAS 6004 $368
https://www.airgunsofarizona.com/pump-u ... ambi-grip/
ADVANTAGES, inexpensive, the SSP style is not reliant on SCBA or an air pump for practice, works for both left and right-handed shooters. Ambi-grip works when shooting two-handed for beginners.
DISADVANTAGES; mechanical deficiencies are well documented on TargetTalk. These may cause frustration to new participants. Because the barrel rotates when re-charging the air after each shot, it may cause loss of discipline in maintaining awareness of muzzle control and safety awareness. No safety. No dry fire mode.

CROSMAN 1701P $429
https://www.airgundepot.com/crosman-com ... ihmsa.html
ADVANTAGES available thru the NRA foundation grant store. A beginner PCP air pistol, inexpensive, allows shooter to focus on shooting and less on the charging the gun between shots. Has a bottom mounted manometer that shows air pressure remaining in the tank.
DISADVANTAGES, poor trigger, reliant on SCBA tank or compressor or hand pump. No dry fire mode. Plastic grip. Andrew Beryhill has custom grips available.

HAMMERLI AP20 $719
http://www.champchoice.com/store/Main.a ... em=2798000
ADVANTAGES German quality. Good trigger. Unique design allows the manifold to be re-oriented to swing the air cylinder closer to the hand. This moves the center of gravity closer to the shooters hand, reducing fatigue in younger athletes that do not yet have strength and stamina. Replacement air cylinders are 1/3 the price of traditional air cylinders when they expire in 10 years. Barrel can be decorated wiith different color barrel sleeves. Ambidexterous grip.
DISADVANTAGES requires an air source ( pump or SCBA ) Air cylinder does not have a manometer. Cylinder must be removed from the pistol to check pressure with seperate gauge. This can lead to self-doubt. Plastic grip, one size.

CZ BRNO TAU-7 $750 used off e-bay
ADVANTAGES Because it was CO2 it was an ideal solution for my athlete that wanted their own gun but did not have the infrastructure to support a PCP pistol ( no air pump, no SCBA tank).
DISADVANTAGES steady consumption of consumable CO2. If purchased in 20 packs, the CO2 costs less than $1 per capsule and will last ~100 shots.

HAMMERLI AP 20 PRO $1049
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/hamm ... tol?m=4072
ADVANTAGES cheapest new 'traditional' style PCP air pistol on the market. German quality. We will purchase more of these as funds become available. Wood orthopedic grip. Has a manometer to show tank pressure.
DISADVANTAGES less adjustable than more expensive PCP pistols as one must expect. Some plastic parts driven by value pricing. Reliant on air source ( pump or SCBA tank ). Only right-hand medium grip available when sold but it is compatable with LP400 grips with other sizes available.

Air Arms Alfa $1,100
https://www.amazon.com/Alfa-Competition ... B0018L9Q0U
ADVANTAGES available thru the NRA foundation grant store. Ambidexterous grip.
DISADVANTAGES we returned the one we received thru our FNRA grant. It was returned to us UN-repaired. We had to take it to a local shop to make it work.

Pardini Kid $1,250
https://www.pardiniguns.com/store/produ ... ducts_id=5
ADVANTAGES Pardini quality. Ambidexterous grip. Lightest quality PCP air pistol on the market. Upgradable to orthopedic grip, backwards compatable with Pardini K10 grips with mechanical triggers. Very popular with the National Training Center youth program at the OTC.
DISADVANTAGES. Reliant on air source ( pump or SCBA tank ). Upgrading to K10 specs is not inexpensive (but is possible).

WALTHER LP 500 $1,500
https://frontierarms.com.au/shop/handgu ... ols/lp500/
ADVANTAGES come from personal preferences at this price level. The gun is capable of outperforming 99% of all shooters.
DISADVANTAGES only personal preferences. Reliant on air source ( pump or SCBA tank ).

The guns listed above are team guns on my teams. Once an individual is capable of shooting above a 530 (interger) i expect them to get their own equipment.

STEYR EVO 10 $2050
http://www.pilkguns.com/store/Steyr-EVO-10-p85257668
ADVANTAGES One of the finest air pistols available. Has required very little change / updates from STEYR to stay competitive. Two other manufacturers have started from scratch with their latest designs.
DISADVANTAGES only personal preference. Reliant on air source ( pump or SCBA tank ).

Do not overlook the used market. There are bargains to be had but caveat emptor.

There are many more quality air pistols that are available. These ccomments are limited to the guns we have experience with.

I started out with the AP20 Basic. It was ok to start as a beginner in Air Pistol, the grip was way to small for me. When I got a custom grip from Berryhill at Precision Target Pistol Grips (https://www.precisiontargetpistolgrips.com/) it was like a whole new gun! I then rotated the air cylinder to the front and that helped with the balance. Eventually I got the pro-cylinder (same as the Walther LPs) from Champ Choice.

The gun functions very well and I have had zero issues with it. The cocking lever is a little odd as it is in the up position to dry fire but you get used to it. It will put them in the middle to, I have shot a couple of 97s and two 98s with it much to my surprise. The trigger blade has quite bit of adjustability on a couple of different axes. The front blade can also be rotated for three different sizes and the back has adjustable width.

Overall for the value I think the AP20 is solid. It is my back-up now to my Morini and I will probably be selling it here in the near future since I don't shoot it often and would rather it be in the hands of someone who will be shooting it. I do think it was a great entry pistol to the sport that has options like different cylinders and weights. I would recommend looking at a AP20 basic with a custom grip for the value over the AP20 Pro version because with my custom grip and upgraded air cylinder the pricing was at the price of the Pro model and I had a fitted grip to boot!

Hopefully this helps!

Agreed!

Pardini Kidd. The NTCSC uses these extensively in their junior pistol program. Good support from Pardini USA. I think they are about $1000. Contact Pardini USA for exact price.

Also, as was stated in the OP, there are a lot of great used pistols out there. I have several FWB and Walther CO2 pistols. They have a detachable/refillable CO2 tank. You can fill them from a beverage CO2 bottle. Those bottles are cheaper than scuba tanks. Sure, they are old technology, but they were winning in the Olympics back in the day. And the triggers are great.

Marc Orvin wrote: ↑Tue Aug 17, 2021 3:41 pm Pardini Kidd. The NTCSC uses these extensively in their junior pistol program. Good support from Pardini USA. I think they are about $1000. Contact Pardini USA for exact price.

Doooh, how could i forget this one? Yes we used several of these at our Junior Olympic Camps that are held at the Olympic Training Center.
We have one on loan to our team thanks to a very supportive farmer.

"HAMMERLI AP20 $719
http://www.champchoice.com/store/Main.a ... em=2798000

DISADVANTAGES requires an air source ( pump or SCBA ) Air cylinder does not have a manometer. Cylinder must be removed from the pistol to check pressure with seperate gauge. This can lead to self-doubt. Plastic grip, one size."

I think one other big disadvantage for new shooters is the absurdly long sight radius on a "beginner" gun. It is longer than almost any other gun out there, and there is no excuse for this. I 3D printed sleeves to go on the barrel behind the factory muzzle break/sight mount which allows us to move the front sight back up to 2 inches. This significantly increases the apparent stability of the sight picture and I feel it is a significant factor in helping new shooters learn good triggering control.

I have 12 crossman 1701s with ruger mk2 rear sights and about 10 ap20s. Both are good guns. Both have long sight radius. The 1701 are the basic supported guns they move into ap20 when they start standing. Both good options for the most part.

The 1701 will need maintainance, typically the seals on the manometer port go out and the guns develope a slow leak. Not hard to do, but if your not carefull, you'll cut the o ring when installing and it'll be worse than what you started with

"DISADVANTAGES requires an air source ( pump or SCBA ) Air cylinder does not have a manometer. Cylinder must be removed from the pistol to check pressure with seperate gauge. This can lead to self-doubt."

It has been my experience that manometers on the cylinders tend to be leaky and/or inaccurate. I PREFER that there be no manometer. Just fill the cylinder at the start of your session (apparently too difficult for some) and you're good to go for a match or practice with no further thought. Even a full cylinder will take more air due to cooling after the original fill.

One should not be letting kids play with compressed air anyway.

you could also add the matchguns MGH-1 mech / gehmann GP-1. i think they are just over AP20 in price at least here in Europe.

Why not Izh46 or MP46M? They both are obviously better than FAS6004 and can get you even to 585!

The pistols you mention have GREAT triggers. One of our local club members offered to loan us a IZH46 when one of my athletes was struggling with equipment issues. Several athletes commented on the amazing trigger qualities . . .

Sergei1950 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 04, 2021 9:37 pm Why not Izh46?

The main reason is the weight.
2.86 pounds is much heavier than any of the contemporary pistols made today.
My most successful athletes are using a Steyr Evo10 and a Walther LP400 Carbon Compact. These weigh 2.1# and 1.9# respectively. That is a significant difference in weight to a full-grown adult or a growing middle-school / junior-high school student.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baikal_IZH-46M

Sergei1950 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 04, 2021 9:37 pm Why not MP46M?

This one is 2.7#
https://www.krale.shop/us/baikal-mp-46m/
The practical reason is that these are not available in the U.S.

Once a buyer gets up into the $650 price range for an Air Venturi AV-46 that is available . . .
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/air- ... tol?m=5257

That makes the 1.9# Walther AP20 a real bargin at $720.
https://sportshootingdepot.com/product/hammerli-ap20/

This one is 2.7#
https://www.krale.shop/us/baikal-mp-46m/
The practical reason is that these are not available in the U.S.

Once a buyer gets up into the $650 price range for an Air Venturi AV-46 that is available . . .
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/air- ... tol?m=5257

That makes the 1.9# Walther AP20 a real bargin at $720.
https://sportshootingdepot.com/product/hammerli-ap20/

This pistol is available in the US as an Air Venturi AV-46M (Pyramid Air, Air Depot etc.)

The AV 46M is being discounted and on sale for $550. The AP20 may be in the $700 range but you still need the fill capability for a PCP, add another $350 minimum plus tank filling charges or $500+ for a compressor.

True it's a little heavy but the trigger is mint. I just bought one and if I find the weight excessive, I'll put it on a diet. Lighten the grip or replace with a "Precision Target Pistol Grip" 3D printed grip which is very light.

Sergei1950 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 04, 2021 9:37 pm Why not Izh46 or MP46M? They both are obviously better than FAS6004 and can get you even to 585!

This ^^

huntfrund wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 9:29 pm

Sergei1950 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 04, 2021 9:37 pm Why not Izh46 or MP46M? They both are obviously better than FAS6004 and can get you even to 585!

This ^^

Same answer to "this" as last time.

Sergei1950 wrote: ↑
Why not Izh46?

me wrote: The main reason is the weight.
2.86 pounds is much heavier than any of the contemporary pistols made today.
My most successful athletes are using a Steyr Evo10 Compact and a Walther LP400 Carbon Compact. These weigh 2.1# and 1.9# respectively. That is a significant difference in weight to a full-grown adult or a growing middle-school / junior-high school student.