TargetTalk

Hi All.
I am a newcomer here, started shooting from 2018 June.
A brief introduction.
Age : 40.
I am cross eyed - right handed shooter, but my dominant eye is left.
So I shoot with my left eye, right eye closed, in a front facing posture ( instead of sidewise position ).
Own a Hammerli AP 20 Pro, for now.
Now the question.

It seems like I am shooting with two distinct groups.
See here.


After and hour or so of shooting, both groups merge, and I shoot almost perfectly.


And this is creating a problem - because I do not know how to adjust the sight picture.
Obviously for a tournament, I do not have any time to practice for 1 hour prior shooting.
And that is producing terrible results.
While my best is easily 95+/100 ( happens after an hour, and continues ) - my initial score is barely 90/100, and most common is 89/100
for first 40 mins or so.

Any help will be appreciated.

Are you closing your right eye or using a blinder on your shooting glasses?

What I would try: Get good glasses, blinder on your left eye. Absolutely, do not shoot with one eye closed, it makes your vision deteriorate. Change your stance to "normal".

OR Learn to shoot left-handed.

OR Check out Olympian Jay Shi who is blind in his right eye and shoots right-handed.

nmondal wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:32 am After and hour or so of shooting, both groups merge, and I shoot almost perfectly.

And this is creating a problem - because I do not know how to adjust the sight picture.
Obviously for a tournament, I do not have any time to practice for 1 hour prior shooting.
And that is producing terrible results.
While my best is easily 95+/100 ( happens after an hour, and continues ) - my initial score is barely 90/100, and most common is 89/100
for first 40 mins or so.

Any help will be appreciated.

If your groups improve over an hour of shooting, try stretching beforehand. Also, dry fire as much as you can during the prep period.

Rover wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:55 am What I would try: Get good glasses, blinder on your left eye. Absolutely, do not shoot with one eye closed, it makes your vision deteriorate. Change your stance to "normal".

OR Learn to shoot left-handed.

OR Check out Olympian Jay Shi who is blind in his right eye and shoots right-handed.

The blinder on the left only works if your right eye has good vision. You can get cross-dominant grips from Rink with a 7 degree offset so you can shoot in a more normal position. Definitely, do NOT close one eye, or use an opaque blocker. Use a small piece of frosted tape on your glasses just large enough to block the view of the sights with the non-aiming eye. That way both eyes get the same amount of light, and your peripheral vision is still good, which helps with stability.

rmca wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:34 am Are you closing your right eye or using a blinder on your shooting glasses?

I wear glass, and shoot with my right eye closed!

nmondal wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:02 am

rmca wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:34 am Are you closing your right eye or using a blinder on your shooting glasses?

I wear glass, and shoot with my right eye closed!

Well then, there's your problem.

Same problem, different solution...

With conscious effort, and exercises over weeks or months, you may be able train yourself to 'disregard' the primary input from the dominant eye and focus with the other eye, shooting with both eyes open. Hard at first, then becomes very easy and natural in the context of shooting.

In another life I was required to shoot multiple successive shots for time and effect and with the body face on to targets. At first, I did not appreciate the impact of shooting right handed with left eye dominant, and the geometry of the situation allowed the first shot to line up ok, but subsequent shots to be difficult to control because of recoil. The arm goes every which way when pushed around by .357 (at the time) recoil, even with two-hand free or supported holds. In short range rapid fire, the arm is supposed to remain contained in the vertical plane and return to position within that plane making front sight re-acquisition quick. With the shooting arm elbow/shoulder cocked to the left to line the weapon up with the left eye shooting right handed, that wasn't happening. After the effort described above, over about a year, I went from barely qualifying to becoming pretty good. It did not seem to affect situation awareness as instructors thought it might.

That process has carried over to the more deliberate 10m pistol shooting I dabble in now. I can only speculate on the effect of that crossed system in precision target shooting.

PS - To the apt reader, the .357 revolver reference dates the era in which this all happened.

JE

Thinking on it a bit more, what you don't want to do under any circumstance is to put the blinder on the left eye, and continue shooting with your dominant eye.

I've been reading this forum too long and have been overly influenced by the perpetual wags therewithin.

JE

Ok - lots of suggestions, thank you all folks, but now I am getting really confused.
For now, I have adjusted the gap between rear sights - and increased it to get more light pass though.
That has an improvement on the accuracy.
But I am really confused, because some suggestions seems contradictory to me!

So what you are asking is how to get all the shots in the same hole, preferably at the target center...that's easier said than done and the whole point of the sport. Just do anything, but do it exactly the same, every time. All the other stuff is based on achieving that end...approach perfect repeatability. All the details make that end easier to achieve.

Suggestions have centered on your self-recognized right hand, left eye aspect. By shooting that way repeatability at the micro level may not be achievable. A test...bring your pistol up to line up with your right eye. It is a natural state, requiring minimal involved muscles in the shoulder. From that position move the pistol to sight with the left eye. Can you feel the tension in the muscles on the outside of your right shoulder? They pull the pistol to the right, and if you were to relax, your handle seems to pull back to the right. You may struggle against that pull with each shot with varying degrees of success, dragging the shot string from left to right. Of course you could adjust your stance to make the sights line up, but then you would have to compensate by breaking your wrist to the right, unless you acquire one of those specialized cockeyed grips. "The knee bone is connected to the thigh bone..."

Another test...(a variation of the shoot at the white wall exercise) Take a stance generally accepted as standard. Close your eyes and bring your pistol up as if to line up on target. Open your eyes. Does the front sight ever line up with your left eye and the target? Any effort to make that happen requires muscle action, contrary to the goal of minimizing muscle involvement and subsequent room for variation from repeatability.

Lastly, occasional shots high and to the right of an aim point can often be attributed to "heeling" (in the right hand shooter). That is a push with the lower palm base as the trigger is released. Put your right hand in the left eye shooting position; exert a small trigger pressure. The hand may exhibit a right rotational tendency (viewed from the top) because of muscle interactions made worse from the cross the body arm position. Hence the grouping from low left to upper right.

Or maybe not.

JE

In case it wasn't clear, and caused confusion, my recent post in this thread suggesting putting a blinder on the left eye, then shoot using that eye was a wandering jaunt in the land of levity.

JE

I teach my kids to get as open as you can and still turn your head so that your looking at the target as "straight on" as you can. What I mean is that your eyes are looking straight forward with respect to your head. Turn your head to the target and adjust you feet till you get there.

I don't recommend closed eye, or black blinders, or even large blinders. Christmas present/office tape works well as it has a light frosting which occludes vision but still allows a lot of light through, which your eyes/brain need.

I do recommend you shoot with the dominant eye and making that adjustment in your grip.

The contradiction your seeing from the different posters is life. We all have different thoughts on what is "best"... the only thing I can say is that people believe to know what is "best", but its often what's best for them... you need to figure out what's best for you. That's what a good coach will help you do. Years ago I took a clinic from a VERY well known shooter with multiple national championships to his credit. Worst shooting decision I ever made. His technique is (IMHO) stupid, and I lost two years trying to convert to his methods. In the end it never worked and I was so frustrated I quit shooting all together for over a year. Since then,, ive taken advise from numerous other shooters and coaches and tried to find what works for me... im improving, but it takes time, there is no magic, just dillagence and hard work

I am right handed, and extremely right I dominant. I often have the same problem. I will have two groups going. Don't be so sure its a dominance problem.

Can you borrow a left handed gun? If I was left eye dominant, I would sure give it a try. My wife is right eye dominant, and left handed. As a total new shooter, she did better right handed.

Another thought for you to consider: If you have have not carefully adjusted your trigger, especially if you have short fingers, a problem can arise. The goal is to get a pull that is straight back and parallel to the barrel axis. If your trigger lacks 3-dimensional adjustment or you have not taken advantage of the adjustments available, accommodating pull length can affect whether you are pushing and/or pulling the trigger left or right with release pressure, values changing with each shot. You may swing the trigger over excessively to make up for finger length, but now the trigger pressure is not in the barrel/frame/grip plane and may cause an undesirable torque. Variability there may contribute to the left to right shot strings.

But my money is on the cross body shooting style as the main culprit.

JE

Rover wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:14 am

nmondal wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:02 am

rmca wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:34 am Are you closing your right eye or using a blinder on your shooting glasses?

I wear glass, and shoot with my right eye closed!

Well then, there's your problem.

Yep, that's what I suspected...
Get a blinder for your glasses to cover the non aiming eye.
Meanwhile you can cut a strip of paper, fold it in half (U shape) and put it upside down on the non aiming lense.

Try and then report back...

Hope this helps

GoodEnuf wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 2:42 pm Another thought for you to consider: If you have have not carefully adjusted your trigger, especially if you have short fingers, a problem can arise. The goal is to get a pull that is straight back and parallel to the barrel axis. If your trigger lacks 3-dimensional adjustment or you have not taken advantage of the adjustments available, accommodating pull length can affect whether you are pushing and/or pulling the trigger left or right with release pressure, values changing with each shot. You may swing the trigger over excessively to make up for finger length, but now the trigger pressure is not in the barrel/frame/grip plane and may cause an undesirable torque. Variability there may contribute to the left to right shot strings.

But my money is on the cross body shooting style as the main culprit.

JE

This, absolutely happens. My size is barely small grip and I am shooting with M-size grip.
And then, the trouble is, my fingers are terribly small. And so what you are suggesting definitely happens.

rmca wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 3:59 pm

Rover wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:14 am

nmondal wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:02 am

rmca wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:34 am Are you closing your right eye or using a blinder on your shooting glasses?

I wear glass, and shoot with my right eye closed!

Well then, there's your problem.

Yep, that's what I suspected...
Get a blinder for your glasses to cover the non aiming eye.
Meanwhile you can cut a strip of paper, fold it in half (U shape) and put it upside down on the non aiming lense.

Try and then report back...

Hope this helps

Will do on it will definitely let you folks know!

Matte cellophane tape works best. Put one strip on the INSIDE of your lens with a tab so that it's easily removed between sessions.

BTW Does your eye focus naturally on your front sight while wearing your glasses? It would be odd if that were true. I suspect you need specialized glasses.

I'm curious as to why the insistence that it go on the "INSIDE"? I've used a piece of tape for 40 years on the outside & never had any issues. With a tab folded over, I don't even have to take my glasses off to remove or relocate it.