TargetTalk

Hi!

First time posting on this forum so hello everyone:)
Im a shooter from Norway, and I've been shooting for about 17-18 years now. I guess I have to consider myself quite a decent shooter, but when it comes to equipment I dont have first hand experience with too many different guns etc. I have seen or read about most guns but haven't tried too many myself is what I"m saying. Now to the point of this post, and furthermore what I need some help with deciding.

My main rifle is a Feinwerkbau 2700 alu which I've had since 2007. It has served me well and is still doing good however at times it feels like I am sort of outshooting the gun a little in prone. Its very picky on ammunition and having to fiddle around alot with tourque on the action screws whenever i test new ammunition(is that what you call them? Hope you guys understand what i mean).

So my question is, should i spend money to upgrade parts of the rifle so i can improve accuracy and/or gain other advantages (bloop tube with tuner, new barrel, new sights etc) or should I sell it and put my money towards a newer and potentially better rifle. To be quite honest, I do not have the funds to purchase the top rifles at the moment, but I am still torn on whether spending money on this rifle is worth it. I can always get my hands on secondhand rifles like KK300 and 1913 in precisestock but it doesn't feel like an upgrade, and I do like the feel of the 2700, both the stock and the trigger.

Here are prices in Norway of the best guns converted to dollars (new condition) for those who wants to know

KK500 Alu 7500USD
Feinwerkbau 2800 6400USD
Anschutz 54.30 in precise 6000USD
Bleiker challenger 2 8400USD
No distributor of Grunig Elmiger in Norway

Also for reference, my average score in 60 shots prone 50 meters would be anythings above 620,0 but "normally" anything between 624,0 and 629,0. I am struggling to find ammunition that will give me any better than 106,5 series. I seem to have atleast 1 or 2 random shots that get away both when benchtesting and shooting and it makes a big difference when having to make up for a 9,2 or smiliar in prone. This is any given LOT of Tenex, match, midas, center x or R50.

Any opinion or thoughts are much appreciated. Thanks!

sounds like you're comfortable with your current rifle, and everybody is going to tell you finding that killer lot of ammo is a continuous search, but I would say find a competent gunsmith and put a new barrel on. But, just to reemphasize, searching for the "lot" is never ending

Ulf,

If you're shooting average 624-629 decimal scores with your FWB2700, it's not doing too badly (actually very well). I think you are right not to expect a KK300 or 1913 to vastly more accurate; you might be lucky and get one that is, or unlucky, and it's no better or a little less accurate.

It is possible you have reached the performance limit of the system. Although have you considered that the barrel is past its best. Although 13 years is a fairly short time to "shoot out" a barrel, I suspect you shoot very frequently. Has the barrel always been fussy, or is this a recent problem? Many shooters report that barrels become fussy before grouping deteriorates.

Replacing the existing barrel would be cheaper than a new rifle. But, you want the new barrel to be exceptional, and this is not guaranteed. If the old barrel was shooting 20mm+ groups, a new barrel will almost certainly be better (assuming it's not faulty, and the gunsmith did a good job), but your barrel isn't totally worn out. Expecting a new barrel to shoot a 107 average is a big ask, of both the barrel and the gunsmith, and you'll still need to batch test. If I were in your position, I'd pick the gunsmith carefully and explain exactly what I needed, then get this in writing.

If you find a good gunsmith, you might discuss rechambering and recrowning the barrel, especially if they can bore scope to check for wear or damage. The FWB barrel clearly shoots well, and a new chamber cut in unworn steel, might lessen the fussiness over ammo. You'd only pay for the gunsmith's time, not an expensive new blank too. You might save enough for a tuner tube!

Tim S wrote: ↑Sat Jan 02, 2021 3:32 am Ulf,

If you're shooting average 624-629 decimal scores with your FWB2700, it's not doing too badly (actually very well). I think you are right not to expect a KK300 or 1913 to vastly more accurate; you might be lucky and get one that is, or unlucky, and it's no better or a little less accurate.

It is possible you have reached the performance limit of the system. Although have you considered that the barrel is past its best. Although 13 years is a fairly short time to "shoot out" a barrel, I suspect you shoot very frequently. Has the barrel always been fussy, or is this a recent problem? Many shooters report that barrels become fussy before grouping deteriorates.

Replacing the existing barrel would be cheaper than a new rifle. But, you want the new barrel to be exceptional, and this is not guaranteed. If the old barrel was shooting 20mm+ groups, a new barrel will almost certainly be better (assuming it's not faulty, and the gunsmith did a good job), but your barrel isn't totally worn out. Expecting a new barrel to shoot a 107 average is a big ask, of both the barrel and the gunsmith, and you'll still need to batch test. If I were in your position, I'd pick the gunsmith carefully and explain exactly what I needed, then get this in writing.

If you find a good gunsmith, you might discuss rechambering and recrowning the barrel, especially if they can bore scope to check for wear or damage. The FWB barrel clearly shoots well, and a new chamber cut in unborn steel, might lessen the business over ammo. You'd only pay for the gunsmith's time, not an expensive new blank too. You might save enough for a tuner tube!

Thank you for the reply!

I guess I've fired a few shots over those years but not that many imo. I would expect it to be able to handle more but that might be were I'm wrong. If I were to throw a number out there I guess its between 20 and 30k somewhere, so nothing extreme. I do shoot air rifle too so (and another 'Norwegian only' dicipline with a different gun).

With regards to groupings I'm not sure if by 20 mm you mean the heigth and width total or an actual 20 mm diameter.
Anyways, the best ammunition I've been able to find lately would group something like 11mm wide and 13-14mm in heigth with no shots outside the grouping. To me this is just an okey grouping and no more. Also, thats for 10 shots. When testing 40 shots I havent been able to find any ammunition without a shot outside the group.

Its definetly been harder to find ammunition in the past couple of years than before.
But what I am hearing you say is that there might not be enough reason so give up on my gun just yet IF I can get a new barrel from the right gunsmith which I am cool with. Worst case I might improve it a little before selling which is not really a bad thing.

I might post again later about my improvement and whether it was worth it.

Cheers

11mm wide by 13-14mm vertical outside-to-outside at 50m is pretty good.

That said, I suspect a tuner would take some of the vertical out of your groups.

Also, have you shot on a Scatt? How do your 50m prone scores and group sizes compare between the Scatt and live fire? If they're close, there probably won't be much gained.

Gulf,

20-30,000 rounds isn't high "mileage" at all over 13 years. So if you bought the rifle new, not used, barrel wear should not be an issue for some time.

When I mentioned 20mm groups I didn't have a particular dimension in mind. Technically a group up to 21.6km (maximum vertical or horizontal) can score 10s if perfectly centred, but that gives no room for error in aim, trigger, or wind reading. 20mm+ is no good no matter which way anyone measures.

If your best test groups are consistent over time, this may be the best that your rifle can do by itself. As the last poster noted, a tuner might help to reduce the vertical spread. These are a lot cheaper than a new rifle, or a new barrel, but do seem to take time (and good ammo) to adjust properly.

Just a thought, but do FWB still put a plastic gasket between the receiver ans alu stock? Is that in good condition? Would it be worth trying a different material?

1845greyhounds wrote: ↑Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:06 pm 11mm wide by 13-14mm vertical outside-to-outside at 50m is pretty good.

That said, I suspect a tuner would take some of the vertical out of your groups.

Thanks for replying. Well as I stated I consider this good not great compared to testing I did say 10 years ago.
What I need help with is deciding whether it is a sound investment to do these upgrades (tuner, tubes, barrel swap etc).

Also, this sort of grouping is what I see when tightening the action bolts more than 6,5 Nm. Going lower (4,5-6,5) will make the grouping rounder and sometimes smaller but I always get random shots outside the group (1 or 2).
Adding to that, when the gun is placed in the test bench and bolts tightened or loosened during testing, even a tiny bit like 0,2 Nm, the grouping can shift as much as 5cm (2 inches) any direction. My anschutz 2007/2013 does not behave like this at all for comparison.

1845greyhounds wrote: ↑Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:10 pm Also, have you shot on a Scatt? How do your 50m prone scores and group sizes compare between the Scatt and live fire? If they're close, there probably won't be much gained.

I have shot a scatt but I do not own one and don't think I have enough data to draw any conclusion from that experience. The only thing i know for a fact is that I always shoot close 9s when staring for to long and not taking the shot quick enough. Even though ammunition might be inconsistent I never ever blame the gun for any 9,9s etc.

With the limited scatt experience I have i did not get any "random" unexplainable shots.

Tim S wrote: ↑Sun Jan 03, 2021 3:08 am Gulf,

20-30,000 rounds isn't high "mileage" at all over 13 years. So if you bought the rifle new, not used, barrel wear should not be an issue for some time.

When I mentioned 20mm groups I didn't have a particular dimension in mind. Technically a group up to 21.6km (maximum vertical or horizontal) can score 10s if perfectly centred, but that gives no room for error in aim, trigger, or wind reading. 20mm+ is no good no matter which way anyone measures.

If your best test groups are consistent over time, this may be the best that your rifle can do by itself. As the last poster noted, a tuner might help to reduce the vertical spread. These are a lot cheaper than a new rifle, or a new barrel, but do seem to take time (and good ammo) to adjust properly.

Just a thought, but do FWB still put a plastic gasket between the receiver ans alu stock? Is that in good condition? Would it be worth trying a different material?

Well, I guess I agree that consistent groupings in the size I'm describing is what the gun might capable of. Would a new gun and/or a different brand make my life easier in the long run? To be honest, from all the shooters in Norway (and internationally) that I know shoots better than me, non of them use this gun anymore so that might be a clue.
I would prefer a gun that is more "forgiving" and easier to work with. If i have to go through the same process with a new gun I guess it's not worth it for now.

I am not sure about that gasket sorry, but I could check.

Ulf,

I think one of the new short-bolt rifles might be more accurate in the long run. Every report from Grunig/Bleiker/KK500* owners I've heard or read has emphasised that these are tolerant of ammo, that more batches shoot small round groups. The short bolt would also be an advantage. The disadvantage is that a new Bleiker/Grunig/KK500* is expensive; in the UK new prices are more than I paid for my last car. However, for an International level shooter who is chasing an Olympic quota/medal, investing in one is a no-brainer. I know I can't justify the expense yet (at least not to my wife), and my trusty Schneider barrelled 1913 will soldier on for a bit.

*I don't know anyone with the FWB2800, and haven't even read a user review, so can't comment. I doubt it's significantly less accurate than the 2700 though. The bolt is a bit ugly but the barrel clamp looks interesting.

rbs wrote: ↑Fri Jan 01, 2021 10:59 pm sounds like you're comfortable with your current rifle, and everybody is going to tell you finding that killer lot of ammo is a continuous search, but I would say find a competent gunsmith and put a new barrel on. But, just to reemphasize, searching for the "lot" is never ending

Thanks for replying. Would you say its just as difficult to find great ammo with a new rifle?(anyone of the ones i mentioned that is).

Tim S wrote: ↑Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:19 am Ulf,

I think one of the new short-bolt rifles might be more accurate in the long run. Every report from Grunig/Bleiker/KK500* owners I've heard or read has emphasised that these are tolerant of ammo, that more batches shoot small round groups. The short bolt would also be an advantage. The disadvantage is that a new Bleiker/Grunig/KK500* is expensive; in the UK new prices are more than I paid for my last car. However, for an International level shooter who is chasing an Olympic quota/medal, investing in one is a no-brainer. I know I can't justify the expense yet (at least not to my wife), and my trusty Schneider barrelled 1913 will soldier on for a bit.

*I don't know anyone with the FWB2800, and haven't even read a user review, so can't comment. I doubt it's significantly less accurate than the 2700 though. The bolt is a bit ugly but the barrel clamp looks interesting.

You seem to have many of the same observations and experiences I have. If any of these new guns are ultimately better I guess I just have to save up. For some reason my wife is suprisingly supportive of me owning a gun worth more than any of our cars so that not an issue either :D
Even though I am not an olympic level shooter or even close, I do believe I can challenge the best on a level playing field on a good day. (Thats for prone. My kneeling is a complete joke, so my 3P scores are never good lol)

Thanks again for taking the time to discuss this, it truly helps me deciding. I have always been more focused on improving my own performance and less on improving the equipment so its probably why its more difficult for me to just randomly swap stuff. I obviously understand that cash is king just like with anything else and that I can buy better equipment, but I dont know if its the right time.

If it were me, I’d stick with the FWB and do the following, in order…

Verify the barrel isn’t overly fouled (like a ring of carbon or lead somewhere) and the barrel’s crown is not damaged.

Investigate the group size variation associated with the action bolts. There’s something there. I am unfamiliar with FWB actions and stocks, but by your description, it sounds like the action is being flexed or twisted when the action bolts are torqued. The wide shots at low torque might be unequal contact or related to action-stock harmonics. I’d look hard at how the action contacts the stock, it’s probably not uniform at low torque. Since your experience is low torque = smaller + rounder groups, I’d BED the action into the stock (at no torque). This will make the contact surface between your action and stock a perfect fit which should reduce the action bolt torque sensitivity.

After bedding, if the groups are still too large (10.7 requires <Ø14mm outside-to-outside perfectly centered groups – correct?), I’d get a tuner. You can find a rough setting within 2 boxes of ammo…

At any time, possibly after every step, get the rifle machine tested for accuracy. It looks like Lapua has a test center in Royken, Norway.

If the rifle shoots to the level you require, but you don’t, get a Scatt. You won’t regret it. Easily the single best shooting purchase I’ve ever made.

If you can’t get the rifle to shoot to your required level, either rebarrel it (and keep the old barrel) or get a replacement rifle (and keep the FWB until you’re satisfied). Definitely have the new barrel or new rifle machine tested before you put much time into it.

Ulf -

I too shoot an FWB 2700 Alu, and 15 years later, it still out shoots me, when clean. My advice is to go inexpensive, first, and purchase a Teslong borescope from Amazon. They are in the $50 USD range, so not overly expensive. they plug into any USB port, and most mobile devices accomodate them with their proprietary application.

I would be looking for a carbon ring just ahead of the throat area. If you don't use a bore scope to assist in your cleaning regimen, then you're not getting a good idea of what's still in the bore. Fellow competitors that I've shot with have well over 100k rounds on their barrels, and they are still shooting tiny little groups both prone and kneeling. They clean regularly. With bronze brushes. Carbon is an accuracy killer, and can cause barrels to give odd, frustrating results.

Go the inexpensive route first, then you'll have an educated idea of whether the barrel is just dirty, shot out, or you have truly outgrown the rifle.

-tc

VFG paste is a pretty inexpensive answer to stubborn fouling in the barrel. I use it on a couple of club barrels that attract more lead than I like. It can take a while to swab out, but it's usually faster than cycles of patching, soaking, and brushing.

Sounds like you need to find the reason for the flyers to me.

I had an old anschutz that did the same, turned out there was a pit in the barrel that would pick up lead until there was too much and then it would stick to the next round down and throw the shot off.

As others have said give it a really good clean, bronze brush and VFG paste if necessary. Keep going with the paste until the barrel is warm. I had the anschutz re-barreled and didn't want to damage it so didn't use a bronze brush, just patches after every shoot. Months later I put a scope down the barrel and was horrified at the carbon fouling in the leade. I tried all options to remove it from gentle to most aggressive putting the scope down after every step and it was only the bronze brush that removed it. I now do three passes with the brush before patching out.

One other thought, your rifle has an extension tube on the barrel. Do you remove it and clean the crown after every shoot? Ive seen people ruin rifles by ignoring the crown hidden inside a barrel extension. The power residue will build up and set like concrete and cause flyers.

good luck!

Could you describe what the carbon ring looks like please. Is it a narrow ring or does it cover a length of the barrel? Curious and wondering if it might be part of my problem.

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https://web.archive.org/web/20170223110 ... aning.html