TargetTalk

Hi Guys,

Just started 10m airgun shooting this summer. I'm lucky to have local competition every week and have done 1/2 a dozen so far, both off hand rifle and bench rest rifle. I'm using a stock daisy 853 and I found it is working better with the lighter pistol pellets vs. the heavies.

OK so when looking at new guns, what is up with the different models? For example, a few guys are shooting the walther LG400. I'm seeing versions of this gun start at just over $1500 and go up to almost $3100. Do they all shoot the same? If so, what's the difference?

Also, what about sights? Like the plastic deal on my daisy is obviously pretty basic but seems like a pretty simple thing....what do you get if you buy one of those multi hundred dollar sights?

Finally, how accurate is the 853? What's the highest score a person can expect to get in the bench rest class? Is getting consistent 10's possible? I'm averaging about 180 for 20 shots over 7 matches. The top guys are doing 197-199 every week. Can I blame my gun? Or is it just....the indian not the arrow? ;)

Thanks for the tips :)

Joe

I have a daisy 853 from the cmp and they are great guns for the money. But no where near the accuracy (or trigger) needed for serious competition especially in bench rest.

I am a big fan of the LG400 Alutec. But it really comes down to fit and feel. With guns like the Walther LG400 (pick any flavor), Anschutz 9015, Anschutz 8002, 9003, Pardini GPR1, FWB 800... all of these in the aluminum stock... the adjustability is almost limitless.

If you are only looking into shooting bench rest then any of these models should work well.

Don't know what the rules are for benchrest, but there are probably plenty of Anschutz 2002CAs floating about that are no longer legal for "international" competition.
They are still legal for the CMP 3-P air, but have not seen any of these about for many years.

Gotta be a few in gunsafes just sitting there forelorn. (I have one)
They are considered "Tanks" by Anschutz.... not much you can do to them to hurt them. Shoot as well today as the day they came from the factory with just simple regulator upkeep.

Regarding sights what more money gets you is precision, and a degree of flexibility.

Precision is very important for target shooting, because target shooters click a lot. For some shooting, accurate and repeatable clicks may not be so important, but for 10m air rifle you are trying to hit a 0.5mm dot. A sight that clicks accurately and repeatably is an advantage. Accuracy and repeatability are not cheap. More expensive sights have finely machined mating surfaces, and even ball-bearing races to reduce friction (thinking of the Anschutz 7002 and Walther Inside/Out, and Hammerli here). Spring-loading the adjustment screws saves on machining, so cheaper sights often employ this, at the cost of a fairly bulky unit. A lot of competitive shooters like slim low-profile designs to see around and orientate themselves; compact and precise costs money.

As well as the sights, you can spend money on fancy accessories that give flexibility. A variable aperture eyepiece, like a mini camera shutter, is a common screw-in upgrade. A basic iris isn't expensive, but is not pocket-money cheap either. The variable iris allows you to alter the brightness of the sight picture without physically moving the rearsight. Fancier irises come with colour filters to control light and make the target pop. A foresight iris allows to you quickly customise the ring; want a 4.27mm aperture that's 1.33mm thick, no problem! Others have a monocle lens that attaches to the rearsight. These hold a prescription lens with a focal length set specially for shooting; 0.5 on top of distance is typical.

Fundamentally aperture sights are just a pair of holes, but people will pay more to get holes that go where they want and are just the right size.

Ten meter guns all have one thing in common. They are excuse eliminators. When you shoot a 6, its you...... The rifles are very personal decisions made on feel for the most part. The guns are all capable of shooting perfect scores......

If you have the money, spoil yourself.

If you're on a budget, buy a new crossman challenger with sights and enjoy tbe game.
It will outshoot most people, and its a lot better than it deserves to be

Well all of that makes perfect sense, thanks for the info :)

I can see how a variable iris at the front would be handy. In our group we're shooting at the regular, tiny little targets for bench rest but using the larger pistol targets for off hand (sorry I don't know the technical terms for these targets). The black area is different sized and it's a lot different looking at the little one on bench vs. the big one on off hand so a quick "click click" to change the size of the iris would be super handy. Changing the iris in the daisy is a royal pain.

It's hard to know what to look for when you don't really know what you're doing, right? But if the accuracy of these guns are all pretty much spot-on, is a used gun a decent option if it's in good shape? A guy in the club is selling an Anschutz 8002-s2 for $1500, said it was just serviced by pilkguns. I'm not sure of the age of the air tube (what's that thing called?). Aren't they good for 10 years or something?

Thanks again guys :)

Joe

The "air tube" is the cylinder, the bit that holds the pressurised air. As I understand it, only certain matches require cylinders to be no more than 10 years old. For club shooting this may not apply.

Regarding irises, you might get away with two target sizes, but check first. An iris that opens enough for a pistol target, may not close down enough on a rifle target, and vice versa; you risk having a pea in a bucket, or a foresight that's too tight*. A second foresight tunnel with a larger aperture insert would be a simple solution.

* a tight fit is not good especially standing. As a rule of thumb the aperture should be big enough to contain any wobble as you release the shot. A lot of beginners think a very tight-fitting aperture is good, but it's not.

Do people every run a tighter/smaller iris for bench rest? It seems like you could go for that nice "lunar eclipse" sign and, boom!, another 10! But yeah, for off hand I prefer a larger one for sure.

Joe

A mid range option would be to buy a good used single stroke like a Feinwerkbau 601 (or 600, 602, or 603) from Jim E. It would operate exactly as you 853 but it is a real match rifle. If you are tired of cocking a rifle then get a PCP. I own both an 853 and a FWB 601 and though they operate the same the FWB 601 is a totally different animal than an 853. If you are enjoying this, and it would seem you are, then buy a nice PCP and be done with it. Myself I bought a CMP 853, then a FWB 601, then a Pardini GPR1 in the course of 2 years. I still have all 3 rifles but need to sell the 853 and 601 and get my money out of them as they are just sitting there. I barely have time to shoot the Pardini much less the other two rifles.

Fastskiguy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 8:39 pm Do people every run a tighter/smaller iris for bench rest? It seems like you could go for that nice "lunar eclipse" sign and, boom!, another 10! But yeah, for off hand I prefer a larger one for sure.

Joe

The trouble is as you get too small an aperture is that the target aiming disc tends to get drawn into the iris edges causing even greater errors, there is a name for the phenomena but it escapes me now. You need to keep a good amount of open space around the aiming disc to allow for good judgement of when you're on target for the 10.9 shot. Typically I would say that most shooters have around 1/3 - 1/2 of the diameter of the aiming disc all around it. If you're using standrd ISSF 1mm targets try about a 3.5-3.8mm aperture, that should give you some idea of a good size. It sounds counter intuitive I know but the eye is very good at centring with a little more space

Fastskiguy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 8:39 pm Do people every run a tighter/smaller iris for bench rest? It seems like you could go for that nice "lunar eclipse" sign and, boom!, another 10! But yeah, for off hand I prefer a larger one for sure.

Joe

Joe,

Within certain limits, yes a steadier hold allows a tighter aperture. However, as Colin noted, one creates problems by going too tight. The issue is diffraction (Colin I think that's the word on the tip of your tongue). The inner edge of the aperture isn't sharp, it's blurred by light and this blur is visible if the foresight ring overlaps the target. It's even visible if the aperture is smaller than the apparent size of the target. The blur isn't a problem with a large enough aperture, because there is a nice broad gap around the target. But if the aperture is really tight, it's possible to overlap the target without noticing, because the blur looks the same as a very thin gap. A bigger brighter gap is just easier, we can recognise smaller changes in light than movement/size.

I'd suggest a slightly larger foresight than Colin 4.0-4.5mm for standing. That's based on the 10m air rifle target that's 3cm/1.25in across. If you're using a larger target, scale up.

Tim S wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 3:39 am Joe,

Within certain limits, yes a steadier hold allows a tighter aperture. However, as Colin noted, one creates problems by going too tight. The issue is diffraction (Colin I think that's the word on the tip of your tongue). The inner edge of the aperture isn't sharp, it's blurred by light and this blur is visible if the foresight ring overlaps the target. It's even visible if the aperture is smaller than the apparent size of the target. The blur isn't a problem with a large enough aperture, because there is a nice broad gap around the target. But if the aperture is really tight, it's possible to overlap the target without noticing, because the blur looks the same as a very thin gap. A bigger brighter gap is just easier, we can recognise smaller changes in light than movement/size.

I'd suggest a slightly larger foresight than Colin 4.0-4.5mm for standing. That's based on the 10m air rifle target that's 3cm/1.25in across. If you're using a larger target, scale up.

Yes diffraction! Lord preserve me!!!! My age

I can see why you'd recommend a larger aperture, I was basing it on prone which is all I really know

OK you guys are a wealth of info, thank you :)

Can I go back to sights for a moment? With the higher end sights, can you move it one click either way and have it move the same amount as any other click? As in...with my daisy it seems like I have to turn the knobs a few clicks to get it to move when going in one direction....then a few clicks to get it back to another direction....and sometimes it doesn't seem to move at all or too much (although that could DEFINITELY be me, I'm not entirely sure). With higher quality sights can you just click once or twice and see the pellet move just a bit on the target?

OK if that's true...What models can do that?

Joe

Joe,

What you describe is usually called backlash. A new Anschutz, FWB, Walther, Steyr, Tesro, Techro, Gehmann, or Centra sight should not have any backlash when new; some have a few clicks as a manufacturing defect.

Now whether you can see a single click on the target is another matter. That one click will move the Mean Point of Impact by 0.2-0.5mm.

Brazos' experience with single stroke pneumatic rifles is correct. I have a FWB 602. It is very accurate; the addition of an adjustable iris with color/diopter adjustment was a huge help for an old shooter. But the cocking effort gets wearisome for extended sessions. I am the in process of being a PCP rifle, likely some Walther LP400 variant.

Mike

F/V Icy Swan wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:50 pm I am the in process of being a PCP rifle, likely some Walther LP400 variant.

Mike

Which variants are you looking at? There's like a ton of different models and it's not clear what is different about them. It looks like the less expensive ones don't have the absorber system and then there are differences in the sights in the upper models.

So....how much do the shooting suits help when offhand? Are you wrapped up like in a straightjacket and hitting 10's all day long or is it more for style?

Joe

Joe, I was looking at the LG 400 Expert, but ended up buying a FWB 700. It should be here soon. I am looking to improve standing position scores. It is too hard for me to kneel.

I am not sure if the shooting jacket comment was directed to me, but I did buy a chubby guy shooting coat from Champion Choice. I am still learning how to get the most out of it, but to answer your question about style, I can assure my Trophy Wife confirms the coat accentuates my Pleasing Panda-like Profile.

Mike

So....how much do the shooting suits help when offhand?

The shooting jacket helps (not as much as the pants), but neither is a replacement for a good stable position. The clothing helps in maintaining the position over a long series of shots. Even at the highest level, training without the clothing is done to be sure the position is still correct.

F/V Icy Swan wrote: ↑Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:15 pm Joe, I was looking at the LG 400 Expert, but ended up buying a FWB 700. It should be here soon. I am looking to improve standing position scores. It is too hard for me to kneel.

I am not sure if the shooting jacket comment was directed to me, but I did buy a chubby guy shooting coat from Champion Choice. I am still learning how to get the most out of it, but to answer your question about style, I can assure my Trophy Wife confirms the coat accentuates my Pleasing Panda-like Profile.

Mike

Ha ha, OK so style for the jacket, sounds good!