TargetTalk

In a effort to improve my Palma rifle shooting, I've fallen down the rabbit hole of ISSF 300m (and some smallbore), and I'm trying to figure out how to make use of a buttplate with a hook. (And with the big matches I was training for mostly cancelled this year, I'm game to completely revisit my position, again.)

My prone position puts the buttstock really close to my neck--such that having a hook would stab me in the chest rather than go under my arm. So, as a first step, I'm attempting to move the rifle out toward my shoulder. The buttstock I'm messing with, a Gemini with a butthook, suggests starting out by adjusting it to fit your shoulder without the rifle attached. Can any of you suggest a guide or provide some suggestions for how to go about doing that? I've read ways of the rifle quite a bit, but I haven't noticed much on the buttplate--maybe they just assume that by the time you're worrying about it, you know something about it. But I'm coming from a discipline where the buttplate depth is limited to .5" (only recently raised to .8"/20mm), so I have almost zero experience with hooked buttplates.

(Forgive me if this topic has been covered to death, my searching mostly turned up for sale threads about spare buttstocks...)

Back when Robert Nibbs, Mr System Gemini, was part of HPS Target rifles there was a set-up guide on their website. Annoyingly he doesn't have one on the new website.

From memory it went like this:
1) Mount the two plates on the base one screw hole apart laterally; i.e. the top plate in the top left hole, and the lower plate in middle/middle hole.
2) Angle the top plate slightly left (looking from above), and angle the bottom slightly right. - These are just starting positions.
3)Looking to the muzzle, twist the lower plate anti-clockwise, so the toe (bottom end) is further away from your body.
4)Adjust height so your shoulder bears against the middle, and you have height on the target, correct fore-arm angle, sight height etc. You can position the raiser bar higher or lower on the base to allow more adjustment if needed. If you have the plate very high, I'd suggest getting an extended raiser bar, as this allows maximum movement and reinforces the aluminium base.
5a) Add the hook at the toe. Adjust to fit against your armpit/ribs when the butt is fully seated. You may need to angle the bottom plate to swing the hook (see step 2).
5b) Add the heel section to the top plate. It hinges to fold loosely over the top of the shoulder: ISSF rules limit the rearwards projection to 25mm max, and a Gemini butt will exceed this, even without the additional hinge cantilever. Take care that the heel doesn't snag on your jacket. The heel assembly is meant to guide the plate into place, not bear the recoil.
6) Adjust lateral offset/cant by loosening and sliding the raiser bar until the sights/stock is in the right place by your head, and the rifle is at the right angle (canted or upright).
7) Any further tweaks so the plate is a good fit against the shoulder, and your shoulder is comfortable.

Thanks, Tim. I'll give it a try with this afternoon's practice.

Assuming that you shoot only prone, I wouldn't change the butt in any way, especially if you have a good fit and feel. The use of a hook in prone is over rated and not necessary.

If you absolutely need one, make (or have someone make) an offset attachment so the hook doesn't stick in your chest.

Cheers,

gstewart wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:42 am Assuming that you shoot only prone, I wouldn't change the butt in any way, especially if you have a good fit and feel. The use of a hook in prone is over rated and not necessary.

If you absolutely need one, make (or have someone make) an offset attachment so the hook doesn't stick in your chest.

Cheers,

You're very right I don't *need* one, I'm just experimenting--and with most of the big matches I was planning on traveling to shoot cancelled, I've got a chance to fiddle with equipment and position at less cost than usual. I've got a somewhat outlandish buttstock setup (a MEC Contact III rotated a bunch clockwise to counteract a tendency to cant), and time to experiment and sort things out. It's worked well, (some success internationally in target rifle/fullbore, and a PR of 597-40 in 300m) but I can't help but know that it's not ideal. And I've never understood the near ubiquity of a butt-hook in prone among top shooters, so I want to see what it is that I don't know.

The past two years leading up to the long range worlds I spent a lot of time chasing out pulse, and it paid off nicely. Now, I'm trying to see what I can learn from an ISSF-style setup.

gstewart wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:42 am make (or have someone make) an offset attachment so the hook doesn't stick in your chest.

Cheers,

Good point, but not needed for a Gemini, the hook rotates about its mount, as can the plate it fits onto.

I've seen Gemini hooks cut down to a stub, and you can swap it for another heel cantilever.

Tim,

I've now done a couple of practices with the buttplate, and it's definitely not comfortable yet, but it does seem well behaved. The sights move up and down vertically (a big part of the motivation for fiddling with my position) and my NPA seems to require less correcting from shot to shot. (I think a lot of that comes from moving the contact point of the butt from right by my neck out to my shoulder so the hook would pass under my arm instead of into my chest)

Thanks for your help.

Oh, and the biggest downside so far? I can't absentmindedly drop the rifle onto my thigh to attach the sling or mess with the sights. There's a big pointy thing that causes significant discomfort when you do that...

Don't mention it.

Gale is right that a hook isn't essential for Prone. A badly adjusted hook can prevent the butt from seating fully, holding the sights too far away, or catch on your trigger arm. No hook is better than these. However, a properly adjusted hook does not hurt; the hook helps you locate the butt more accurately, than muscle memory with a flat plate. I think it also reduces movement in the shoulder during loading and firing.

I also think that butt hook design has improved. My spare rifle is a 1979 Anschutz Supermatch. I cannot get the butt to seat fully in my shoulder, there is contact only at the top of the plate and the end of the hook. More height might help, but that's beyond my skills. My Gemini butt just fits better, and fits a wide range of body shapes. It is much more complicated, and it's easy to twiddle needlessly.

EDIT - don't have a problem with resting the butt on my thigh while I attach the sling. I have had practise though.

There's only 1 Palma shooter that I know that uses words like "ubiquitous".

Welcome to the forum, Mr. G!