TargetTalk

Im looking for some help on using a spotting scope while practicing .22lr pistol, 25m precision training. I used a spotting scope for the first time last weekend, prior to this I would shoot 5 or 10 round groups and then go up and look at my target, and try and read what the group is telling me.
With the spotting scope I was looking at every round, and probably found myself chasing the bull instead of analysing the shot.
Should I be analysing my shot process and calling the shot and then checking the shot through the scope ?
What should I be looking to find out from seeing the hole in the target ?
Anyone with advice or articles I can read up on the use of spotting scope.

Proper use of spotting scope:

1. Sell the scope
2. Use the proceeds to buy ammunition
3. Shoot more!

There ya go - problem solved. Hope this helps.

Irishshooter wrote: ↑Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:31 pm Should I be analysing my shot process and calling the shot and then checking the shot through the scope ?

Jupp.

Thanks for your input northpaw, I'll work on that.

What's the difference between a Marksman or Sharpshooter looking in the spotting scope versus a Master or High Master?

The Marksman and Sharpshooter is looking to see where the shot went, the Master and High Master are simply verifying their shot was as called.

Follow your shot process and call the shot. If you can't call your shot, you're just playing projectile roulette. Even without a scope, simply call each shot and mark it on a target beside you on the bench (pencil, push pins, whatever). Then you can check the scope or the target after a few shots.

But the exercise is really to begin to learn how to SEE the front sight / dot ALL the way through the shot process.

CR

The Marksman and Sharpshooter is looking to see where the shot went, the Master and High Master are simply verifying their shot was as called

Very well put, and explains a lot to me.

Cecil, good response.

I've gone to practicing without the scope and shooting for group size. Its easy to adjust where the group is hitting once you get a consistent good shaped group.

In matches, I've taken to checking the scope on the first couple slow fire shots and then adjusting sights if needed - then I manually turn the scope down so that I don't have the urge to peek and change my process based on seeing a bad result.

Scope is handy when practicing if the range is hot and targets are not easily changed, I use the scope to count how many shots I have within a certain ring and then shoot another 10 rounds while waiting for an opportunity to hang a fresh target.

I wrote this many years ago on this very subject in "So You Wanna Shoot Bullseye".

“To Scope or Not to Scope…that is the question.”

Whether tis nobler to cast thine eye only upon the sight, and believing only in one’s instincts, finding one’s true center only in the minds eye until the walk of doom is upon you.

Or lose thyself within the tube of terror and face the reality of one’s own short-coming and frailty, the results hanging there, like little satellites orbiting the dark center of our souls…

What's the difference between a Marksman and a Master scoping a shot? (Why do we scope shots?)

Answer: The Marksman is generally looking for where the shot went, the Master is checking to see how close he called the shot to where it actually landed. (Shots should be scoped to confirm the shot call, not to find out where it went. If we need to scope for where it went, then we are not "calling" the shot.)

Any way you look at it, you eventually have to look at the results of your shots so why not go ahead and scope your shots? Not for analysis, but to confirm what you were supposed to have already seen when the shot was fired. And if the results are not similar, wouldn’t you want to know NOW, before the other 9 shots go down range?

However, do not dwell upon the scope as the source of all knowledge and let it determine what you will do next. That will be determined by you and what you saw during the shot versus the desired location of the shot(s); like a scope adjustment or a mind adjustment. Scoping is just a confirmation that you saw it correctly, or that you need to see it better. You have to decide which is best and what to do.

Personally, I scope for every shot at the long line (but not immediately and after reviewing the shot in my mind) and rarely at the short line (since I almost always know if the string had any outliers anyway).

Irishshooter wrote: ↑Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:31 pm Should I be analysing my shot process and calling the shot and then checking the shot through the scope ?
What should I be looking to find out from seeing the hole in the target ?

You're checking to see where it went, then you use that information to make the next shot better.

Whether its worthwhile to scope every shot I'm not sure, at the top level probably, at a lower level you're probably better off scoping every two or three.

If the shot/group is off what do you do? Adjust the sights or adjust yourself - foot position, stance, head positions etc?

If the group is larger than it should be you need to adjust whats going on in your head.

Staring through the scope for long periods changes your eyesight, even if you use your non-aiming eye.
Ages agonising over whether a shot might gauge in doesn't help the next one.

You're checking to see where it went, then you use that information to make the next shot better.

The following is my personal observation, but I think the language of "checking to see where it went" could be described in a different way to illustrate the comparison and feedback process that could help foster improvement. I do agree about not "living" in the scope and agonizing over shots. That is great advise! And I do think we are all probably trying to say the same thing, just in different ways and from different perspective.

A shooter should be calling the shot, no matter if scoping or not. Then the shooter can decide to scope or not. But here is the catch for me. if a shooter doesn't scope each shot for slow fire (training or match), then after X number of shots, how does the shooter know for sure which one(s) were exactly on call and which one(s) were not exactly but close or not when they do scope or score? The immediate feedback of observation of the result compared to the just completed shot process and call is lost. If a shooter is calling the shots well, then it's just positive confirmation. If the shooter is calling the shot well and the result are not there (but maybe on the next target over), then wouldn't the shooter want to know now? (And yes, I've participated on both sides in more than one crossfire experience.)

And when shooting open sights at outdoor ranges, the changing light can sometimes move the groups for some people (it seems to be a vision thing). So it was generally a good idea for me to keep scoping and see how the group was developing on the target.

I still believe a shooter should be checking the call first, not checking to see where it went. (A subtle but important difference in the shot process. ) Then if it is not on call, the shooter needs to work on seeing the shot, otherwise its just random chance. If a shooter is seeing the shots and calling them mostly center, but the group is not, then you can move the sights.

But here's the catch, a shooter can can only use the sights to move the group. A shooter that is trying to move the next shot based on the last one, will generally wind up chasing the sights all throughout the match. Gather enough information to know what the group size is first. And if the group size is too large, then clicking the sights is not going to help much. There are other issues, mechanical, physical or mental that may need to be addressed.

From my observations running matches for over 25 years and watching lots of scoring and conversations, most people always call that 8 (7, 6, whatever) a "flyer", but I've noticed no one seems to call that lonely "X" out of 10 shots a "flyer".

CR

I knew my question would get a bit of debate going, and Im enjoying reading your views. When I asked the question it was after using a scope for the first time, and I found myself trying to adjust after looking at each shot on the target. I felt this was wrong, and I was using the scope for the wrong reasons.
So I now look at a scope as an aid to confirm my good or bad shots, after calling the shot.
The only time I will use it for " chasing the bull " as I call it is when zeroing and need to move the group.

One thing I suppose I would add, for general training the scope should be used very little, you're focusing on process at the firing point and seeing what affects your group size and what doesn't. Fewer than 5-10 shots doesn't tell you much. You can analyse your process when you patch the target.

Heading towards competitions you need to start using your scope a bit.

Other strategies:

In a match if after 2-3 shots you feel your group is off you can adjust a click or two - not enough to throw it off if you're wrong, might help a bit if you're right. Or half the number of clicks you think you need, etc.

A UK coach had another odd strategy, have a target on your bench, put a coin or marker where the shot went, then move it to the centre.

The point of both is to replace the thought floating around in your head-noodle "the last shot went left/right/hi/lo - I must pull the next shot right/left/lo/hi" with "I have corrected and adjusted and should focus on process"

Sometimes its better to adjust the sights, sometimes better to do nothing. Often I find each five shot group lands with the centre in a different spot, over the course of a match it averages out. Also the sighters and sometimes the first series land a little low, then centre as my muscles warm up.

That's something to keep an eye on when shooting practice match, as the shooter and pistol warm up is the MPI of the group moving. If you know what is happening your groups over the course of a match it save a lot of tinkering and head scratching after the first card.
Thanks

It does happen, the right thing to do is a half hour warm up before the match 10-20-30 raises say, then you should be set, but few people do.
Also exercise and warm up the eyes.