TargetTalk

I am a new member and a total beginner. My new KK300 anatomic is coming tomorrow. I have to admit I know little about smallbore shooting and even less about my new rifle. It is Father’s Day gift. I really need your expert advice.

I live in Central Ohio. My current club is all about handguns and traps shooting. Their rifle range is only 25 yards. I went to Cardinal shooting center today to check out their rifle range. It is not ready yet.

Can anyone recommend a smallbore shooting range in Central Ohio? More urgent: any coach in the area I can turn to for some basic training and even get my rifle set up correctly? I got most of the gear when purchasing my rifle except a jacket which I plan to purchase July 4 weekend during ASSA Nationals. I hope there are vendor booths there. Before Cardinal is ready, how should I practice on a 25 yard range? Can I shoot smaller target?

Any information is greatly appreciated.

Welcome, and that:s some father's day gift!

25 yards isn't a common competition distance in the US. Your indoor/gallery norm is 50ft. That doesn't mean that you can't practise at 25 yards, and compete at other ranges. You will need to use a target that's sized for the distance, otherwise your sight picture/foresight aperture will be out of whack elsewhere.

25 yards is the norm for indoor shooting in the UK, so it can be done. For starters a 2in diameter black circle works for grouping and rough sight adjustment. Scoring rings can come later. The British 25 yard target is scaled down from the ISSF/Olympic 50m, so similar in size to US-NRA conventional targets, perhaps a little wider.

Are you shooting Prone only or 3-P? You can guides to setting up the rifle for Prone here:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=58327&p=280995#p280995

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=46399

Tim S: Thank you for the information!
I will start shooting prone first.
The targets I purchased are for 25 yards:

25 Yard Slow Fire Pistol Target, Official NRA Target B-16, Bullseye Target.On the Black Target: the X ring is 0.67", the 10 ring is 1.51", the 9 ring is 2.60", 8 ring is 3.82", and 7 ring is 5.32"

Will this work?

I will purchase a SCATT usb and feel it will be helpful. In the meantime I will use my MantisX on my rifle for trigger control practice.

I will check the links. That is the kind of information I need!

Again appreciate your help!

That Pistol target is much too large for rifle shooting at 25 yards. It's larger than 50 yard/metre rifle targets (around 4in across) . The black aiming mark should fit the ring in your front sight with a good gap around it. Typical sizes for prone, on rifle targets are 3.6-4.2mm. The 25 yard Pistol target will need a ring 2.5x larger, and you'll struggle to find a 9-10mm ring.

Try cutting 2in circles from heavy black paper (the sort kids use for crafts) and gluing this to heavy paper. That will do for learning to shoot with aperture sights.

The target that you need for 25 yd/75 ft is the A-7/5, available from Kruger USA or Pistoleer.com. I'd recommend the Kruger's as they're printed on better paper, IMHO, and the bullet cuts a more uniform hole. For competition purposes, two shots for record are placed on each bull. A separate, single bull, is used for your sighters.

Here's a link - Here's a link - https://www.kruger-us-targets.com/index ... a-7-5.html.

Our club here in eastern PA runs an indoor winter match series shot at 75 ft. Kind of an oddball distance, but challenging nonetheless.

Enjoy your KK300.

Mike

I've been around smallbore for several years now and 25 yards is not very common in my experience.

For 3 position, outdoor distances are normally 50 yards and 50 meters. Prone adds 100yards to those distances.

Indoor is normally 50 feet.

Mikey_P wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:45 amA-7/5

Thanks! I have just ordered this target. Great that I can still practice in my current club till I find something better. So I shoot 1 bull eye for sighting and then 2 shots for each remaining bull?

Our shooting lane has a waist high platform (desktop?) so I can't practice prone. Maybe I need to do sitting position?

I've attached a pic showing the basic layout of the targets for our match (which is prone, BTW). The single bull located in the center is used for your unlimited sighters. Your shots for record are placed on the left and right targets, two shots per bull. So, for each stage of the match, you'd be shooting a total of 20 shots for record. Our match has four stages, so the total is 80 shots for record, or an 800 aggregate.

If you can't practice prone for now, that's okay. If nothing else, having the correct target will allow you to get in the ballpark, at least, with your aperture size on your sights, which really won't change too much as you move to 50 ft, or 50 & 100 yds. The bull diameter is proportional to distance, so it appears at least similar as distance varies. You'll probably have to tweak your settings somewhat, however, for changing lighting and atmospheric conditions.

Hope this helps!

Mike

Mikey_P wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:48 am I've attached a pic showing the basic layout of the targets for our match (which is prone, BTW). The single bull located in the center is used for your unlimited sighters. Your shots for record are placed on the left and right targets, two shots per bull. So, for each stage of the match, you'd be shooting a total of 20 shots for record. Our match has four stages, so the total is 80 shots for record, or an 800 aggregate.

If you can't practice prone for now, that's okay. If nothing else, having the correct target will allow you to get in the ballpark, at least, with your aperture size on your sights, which really won't change too much as you move to 50 ft, or 50 & 100 yds. The bull diameter is proportional to distance, so it appears at least similar as distance varies. You'll probably have to tweak your settings somewhat, however, for changing lighting and atmospheric conditions.

Hope this helps!

Mike

It is very helpful. Thank you so much. I think I might just start with standing. What the heck. I have been a Taichi teacher for over 15 years. I should at least have my balance. I will then work down to prone while Cardinal center is being built ready for the Nationals for the July 4 weekend.

You guys are great!

Is SCATT basic good enough or I should get at least SCATT usb. I am currently leaning towards USB version as it uses a pro version of the software.

Assuming you want to live fire?
You could use a USB version, but if you have a wild round you could destroy the target
A Basic has just the sensor (camera) on the rifle & nothing downrange to damage.

Either will work for home "dry fire" use. Go get yourself a $5 pack of #4 drywall anchors (the yellow ones) for dryfire.

jhmartin wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:29 am Assuming you want to live fire?
You could use a USB version, but if you have a wild round you could destroy the target
A Basic has just the sensor (camera) on the rifle & nothing downrange to damage.

Either will work for home "dry fire" use. Go get yourself a $5 pack of #4 drywall anchors (the yellow ones) for dryfire.

I have been using wall anchors for my .22 pistols. On live fire, I use MantisX to check my trigger control. If you think SCATT basic can work for both dry and live, I can get it sooner.

I was planning to get usb for home dry fire only.

My FFL called me: my KK300 Anatomic is in. Will go over there to take delivery after work. Anything to watch for? I was told the shipping package in perfect condition. So excited! They will get their gunsmith to help me with initial setup and walk-through. Whatever I can get is better than none.

Thank you guys!

I have a Ohio wild life range permit for their public outdoor ranges. This might be another possibility. I have never been to any of it yet worried about safety on such ranges. Do I need a target stand to set up my target there? I purchased the permit and totally forgot. If I need a stand to set it up, what kind stand do I need?

Thanks!

A dumb question: sights on my KK300 are consider metallic (or iorn) sights? I know at Cardinal they have either 'iron sight group' or any 'sight group'.

jhd26 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:49 am A dumb question: sights on my KK300 are consider metallic (or iorn) sights? I know at Cardinal they have either 'iron sight group' or any 'sight group'.

Walther supply aperture sights. These are iron/metallic. "Any" sights includes telescopic sights.

You'll get an aperture rearsight, adjustable for windage and elevation. The turret markings can be confusing because Germans think of where the shots are, not where you want them to go. Turn clockwise to move left/down and anticlockwise for up/right.

You can position the sight so it's about 2in from your eye. Then adjust the distance at the range until the ratio of the sight picture looks right. Typically the foresight fills about 1/3 of the rear, but it's down to you. Be aware that eye relief is not the same across all positions. If you plan to shoot 3/4P make note of where the sight goes for each position.

The eyepiece has a single drilled aperture, usually 1.1mm or 1.2mm. It screws into the sight. The thread is a standard size, so you can swap it for a variable iris eyepiece from Centra or Gehmann. An iris eyepiece lets you tweak the brightness, indepently of eye relief.

The foresight has screw-in inserts. I think they supply glass inserts with a floating metal ring made by Centra. These are marked around the edge with the i/d of the aperture, and the thickness of the ring in mm (e.g. 3.8/1.2).

Tim S wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:19 pm

jhd26 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:49 am A dumb question: sights on my KK300 are consider metallic (or iorn) sights? I know at Cardinal they have either 'iron sight group' or any 'sight group'.

Walther supply aperture sights. These are iron/metallic. "Any" sights includes telescopic sights.

You'll get an aperture rearsight, adjustable for windage and elevation. The turret markings can be confusing because Germans think of where the shots are, not where you want them to go. Turn clockwise to move left/down and anticlockwise for up/right.

You can position the sight so it's about 2in from your eye. Then adjust the distance at the range until the ratio of the sight picture looks right. Typically the foresight fills about 1/3 of the rear, but it's down to you. Be aware that eye relief is not the same across all positions. If you plan to shoot 3/4P make note of where the sight goes for each position.

The eyepiece has a single drilled aperture, usually 1.1mm or 1.2mm. It screws into the sight. The thread is a standard size, so you can swap it for a variable iris eyepiece from Centra or Gehmann. An iris eyepiece lets you tweak the brightness, indepently of eye relief.

The foresight has screw-in inserts. I think they supply glass inserts with a floating metal ring made by Centra. These are marked around the edge with the i/d of the aperture, and the thickness of the ring in mm (e.g. 3.8/1.2).

Got it! Thanks!

I ordered a Centra variable iris. My seller told me it is a must. So if my shot lands right of intended target, I turn to windage torret clockwise and if landing higher I turn elevation torret clockwise. rt I got this totally opposite?

No, that's right, clockwise to move shots lower or left. It's a left handed thread. The Germans label the sights "too high? Move this way...

A rear iris is very useful. Some are just an iris, and some have colour filters to make the black foresight ring and target stand out, or polariser to cut glare in bright sunshine.

Okay. I got my KK300. My gunsmith helped me set everything up and walked me through. He spent nearly an hour with me. Great guy. Feel I got the basics up. After I got home, I did more twitching and it is getting better. I notice there is no guide rod in my package. Other KK300 owner: did you receive a cleaning guide rod? Somehow I remember Walther provides one or is it KK500 thing?

The bore guide is not provided with a KK300. This must be quite old stock, as KK300 (other than Blacktec) has not been available for about 2 years. I had a KK300 Anatomic which was very nice and reliable. I did have some issues sometimes with one of the extractors sticking out and bolt wouldn't close, this was caused I believe by grit getting in the bolt extractor (claw) mechanisms - I suggest you completely strip the bolt every 500-1000 rounds and clean it all thoroughly and scrupulously, this includes removing the extractor claw components from the bolt body. Let me know if you need help in how to do this. My KK300 was super accurate too, they make a good barrel. I shot a 105.5 decimal 10-shot with it in the shoulder prone, 105.0 another time, and it did 106.5 on the test bench, all with Eley ammo. Best I could manage with this rifle was 592 (with 2 x 8's!) raw, and a 619.[cant remember] decimal.

The other issue you might run into is with their buttplate adjustment mechanism. If you want to shoot very good scores, you need a lot of shoulder pressure. While the knurled thumbwheel that provides butt-length adjustment stops the centre rod from being pushed into the stock, in prone you will tend to have a fairly high buttplate, and with a lot of shoulder pressure, due to leverage this exerts a lot of force on the top guide rod, which has no resistance. The only thing stopping the buttplate from being pushed in at an angle, is the two clamping screws on the stock, but they are only M4, relatively small and designed to stop the buttplate from falling out, not designed to clamp it tightly (unless you liked stripped threads). To fix this, get some M10 shaft collars and washers to act as spacers, and this will stop it from pushing the rod into the stock. Once set, forget unless you want or need to adjust buttplate length in which case add/remove spacers as required.

Go here to see Ivana Makismovic in 3 positions with your rifle.
https://www.heinzreinkemeier.de/poster/poster-download/

And if you look at the air rifle poster of her, you will see spacers on the buttplate carrier.

Enjoy your KK300

Modena wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:18 am The bore guide is not provided with a KK300. This must be quite old stock, as KK300 (other than Blacktec) has not been available for about 2 years. I had a KK300 Anatomic which was very nice and reliable. I did have some issues sometimes with one of the extractors sticking out and bolt wouldn't close, this was caused I believe by grit getting in the bolt extractor (claw) mechanisms - I suggest you completely strip the bolt every 500-1000 rounds and clean it all thoroughly and scrupulously, this includes removing the extractor claw components from the bolt body. Let me know if you need help in how to do this. My KK300 was super accurate too, they make a good barrel. I shot a 105.5 decimal 10-shot with it in the shoulder prone, 105.0 another time, and it did 106.5 on the test bench, all with Eley ammo. Best I could manage with this rifle was 592 (with 2 x 8's!) raw, and a 619.[cant remember] decimal.

The other issue you might run into is with their buttplate adjustment mechanism. If you want to shoot very good scores, you need a lot of shoulder pressure. While the knurled thumbwheel that provides butt-length adjustment stops the centre rod from being pushed into the stock, in prone you will tend to have a fairly high buttplate, and with a lot of shoulder pressure, due to leverage this exerts a lot of force on the top guide rod, which has no resistance. The only thing stopping the buttplate from being pushed in at an angle, is the two clamping screws on the stock, but they are only M4, relatively small and designed to stop the buttplate from falling out, not designed to clamp it tightly (unless you liked stripped threads). To fix this, get some M10 shaft collars and washers to act as spacers, and this will stop it from pushing the rod into the stock. Once set, forget unless you want or need to adjust buttplate length in which case add/remove spacers as required.

Go here to see Ivana Makismovic in 3 positions with your rifle.
https://www.heinzreinkemeier.de/poster/poster-download/

And if you look at the air rifle poster of her, you will see spacers on the buttplate carrier.

Enjoy your KK300

Thank you so much for sharing your expertise and experience!

The first issue is about cleaning the bolt. I saw a youtube video about it - not well made but might be good enough. Not comfortable to disassemble my bolt yet. But I am sure I will learn.

The second issue is about strengthening the support of buttplate? I need to find a bigger picture to find out. Are you just saying I need to find bigger (M10) washers to use as spacers? Anyway, the buttplate adjustment seems to be the most tricky part of the rifle to tinker with. I need to spend more time on it.

I must say this is a very heavy rifle! My arms get tired pretty quick. I do understand I need to hold and support my rifle with the correct posture especially for standing with only bone structure and no muscles. But still this rifle just feel so heavy. Maybe I am weak getting old or maybe I need experiment with the hand hold and cheek piece to achieve a proper balance. I am using the "hook' piece on the butplat and it seems to help. I just played with my rifle shortly and will get a better idea this weekend. If that girl Ivana can handle that rifle easily why should I struggle with the weight? I did train about 2 hours of competitive table tennis beforehand and tired already. But still...

Another question to your experts: my front sight (insight-out) is small in my sight picture. Is there any good sight pictures I can use as a reference? The manual says I should adjust front iris but my gunsmith told me not to touch the front sight.

Tim S wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:34 pm No, that's right, clockwise to move shots lower or left. It's a left handed thread. The Germans label the sights "too high? Move this way...

A rear iris is very useful. Some are just an iris, and some have colour filters to make the black foresight ring and target stand out, or polariser to cut glare in bright sunshine.

Straight out of the box I made some shots at 50 feet. I am attaching a picture. The group is high and right. I turned torrents 6-8 clicks on both and saw very little change. It did increase my group. It was late and I did not have much time to shoot more last night. Will do it again this weekend.

So can you walk me through a basic sighting process given my lane is 75 feet max? For this group in my picture, how should I adjustment my torrents? Turning clockwise on both elevation and windage, right?

Also the manual says I can pull up the torrents and set my '0'. But I don't believe I can do that. Am I missing something?

Sorry for all the questions. I am just too new to this sport.

I have gained a lot knowledge from you guys. Thanks!

Thank you so much!