TargetTalk

Hey Guys,

I know that I'm posting in a forum about olympic shooting, nevertheless I hope that can get some advices.
I'm rather new to shooting sport and just got the authorization to buy own weapons just one month ago.

In my shooting club we're shooting bullseye 25 meters.
I just trained with the club pistols like Hämmerli 280, Hämmerli 208, Walther GSP, GSP Expert and Erma ESP 85A.
As the Walthers and Hämmerlis are highly frequented by other club mates, I trained with the Erma most of the time.

We're shooting 15 rounds per stage, so maximum is 150 points. On very good days, I get roundabout ~ 125 / 150, but
common result is ~ 110 / 150.

Now it's time to buy an own .22 pistol. As I like the ERMAs handling very much, I already thougt about buying one second hand,
but regarding the bad availability of spare parts for the Hämmerlis and Ermas, I came to the decision to buy a new pistol.

As I have no ambitions to parcipate in competitions in near future, I don't know if I should get a match pistol like the GSP Expert or a plinking pistol
like SW22 Victory or Browning Buck Mark.
So I would like to know what are the main differences between match and plinking pistols? Prices differs for 500-900 € for plinking pistols and roundabout 1600€ for a match pistol like the GSP Expert.
How big is the gap between those guns? Are those plinking pistols are really accurate enough for bullseye shooting?

Get a Ruger and Volquartsen trigger kit and be happy.

its not the accuracy that is the issue it's the trigger. A plinking gun trigger will always suck compared to a match pistol. Since you've been using a gun that the magazine feeds into the grip. Look at the FWB AW93 or the Hammerli/Walther trailside/xesse. Those are still in production, 208 parts are findable in the states.

I don't think powertube is IN the States.

Seems that my bad english has convicted me. :-D No, I'm from Germany.

Finding spares for the old match pistols is not impossible, but prices for some parts are disgustingly expensive.

I think it' not a smart choice to pay 400-600 euros for a used pistol when I get a new plinking pistol for the same price or
a GSP Expert for 1600 euros.
Is there a big difference between those buck marks, rugers or sw22 victory? Can you recommend a message board which is more focussed on plinking pistols?

If you are stuck on a plinker get the Ruger Mk IV and do the trigger upgrade.

Your English is far better than my German!! Since you’re in Europe it would seem a used match gun would be a very reasonable purchase and leave you with no alibis where your pistol is concerned. Just a caution on the Ruger recommendations others have voiced: The grip angle on the Ruger Mk series is pretty steep. I didn’t like that at all. You may feel differently but it is something to be aware of. I’m not sure if that’s changed at all with the Mk IV. I’d go for a used match gun that you are familiar with handling and that suits you. That’s a great luxury to have been able to try out that many good examples - surely you must have had some preferences based on that experience. As far as getting a plinker instead: I’d imagine that’s more of a personal choice as well. If you’re the type like myself, where eventually the idea that you’d compromised, and room for improvement necessarily means removing hardware alibis, why waste time going backwards? If that idea won’t gnaw at you, and you can have just as much fun and reward no matter what the hardware (surely YOU are the very most important aspect of that chain no matter which direction you take).

You have lots of pistols to choose from in Germany, both my pistols have been purchased from Germany, I have a Hammerli Xesse and a Pardini SP, from your club guns which one do you like the best and does it give you the best scores.
Dont be worrying about buying a used match pistol, they are well made pistols.
The reason I bought the Xesse was it wasn't a plinker and it wasn't a top of the price range pistol, Hammerli Xesse Sport is a good pistol. The reason i bought the Pardini was like alot of shooters I suffer with the " ohhh I'd like one of thoses disease "

log onto http://www.egun.de/market/list_items.ph ... at&cat=155 and get yourself a good used pistol

jaxontarget wrote:Your English is far better than my German!! If that idea won’t gnaw at you, and you can have just as much fun and reward no matter what the hardware (surely YOU are the very most important aspect of that chain no matter which direction you take).

Good point. I'm absolutely with you, as I don't think thats a good choice to buy a high quality match pistol that doesn't fit me.

Irishshooter wrote:You have lots of pistols to choose from in Germany, both my pistols have been purchased from Germany, I have a Hammerli Xesse and a Pardini SP, from your club guns which one do you like the best and does it give you the best scores.

What I like best are those models with a slim barrel design like the ERMA ESP 85, Hämmerli 208, 208s, Hämmerli 215 but also the FN 150 or High Standards.
I don't like the top-heaviness (hope that this is the correct word) like models as Hämmerli 280. Also I don't like the look of those pistols with massive barrels.

Your question has been amply answered various times in the one relevant German competitive sport shooting forum ("Meisterschützen"), though I admit that the high-end absolutists are a bit dominant there at times. This of course is due partially to the ISSF imprint, and partially to the confines of the German firearms law.

That said, nobody in his right mind would EVER buy a new Walther GSP Expert, for whatever purpose. None. Not a beginner and leisure shooter, not a top-notch competitor. None.

If you want to buy used, the prices of the Erma ESP 85 A (avoid the predecessor without the letter) are seducingly low (between 100 and 200 Euros), but you have correctly outlined the spare parts problems. Becauses Ermas *DO* break (notably the magazines).

The best money <--> value ratio in Germany are used Hämmerlis (there are offered enough to build dams in swamps), often a cause of green-eyed jealousy and incredulity among your Amurrican brethren.

Also very much value for low money can be had with used IZH-35 (IJ-35, Baikal, Walther KPS 200), but problems with some used guns can be gleaned from this forum's search function. Sooner or later, your extractor assembly will be blown out. And there are no new parts available.

I you can find one, a used Sako Tri-Ace can also be a fine and affordable buy.

Alexander

Powertube, with the exception of the Erma, I have the pistols you mention in the original post. My Victory, Buckmark, and Rugers have all had extensive trigger mods by Jon Eulette.

I think Chris Micelli said it correctly "A plinking gun trigger will always suck compared to a match pistol."

Although I like the "plinkers", I rarely shoot them.

There is a also a substantial difference among the high end target pistols. The triggers, although wonderful, are not the same.

The grip angles vary substantially, as does the weight.

I have two GSPs and like them a lot, BUT, they are nose heavy if that matters to you (my GSP with dot sight is 44oz, my Pardini similarly equipped, with all the barrel weights installed is 38oz)

For me, the gap between the pistols you mention is perhaps not so large, but cannot be overcome (if that makes any sense).

Alexander wrote:
That said, nobody in his right mind would EVER buy a new Walther GSP Expert, for whatever purpose. None. Not a beginner and leisure shooter, not a top-notch competitor. None.

Alexander

Alexander,

I've never owned or shot a Walther, but always considered them to be high quality pistols.

Looks like this is not the case. Exactly what problems are shooters having with this particular

model that makes them unsuitable "for whatever purpose"?

Thank you,

mr alexander

mr alexander wrote:

Alexander wrote:
That said, nobody in his right mind would EVER buy a new Walther GSP Expert, for whatever purpose. None. Not a beginner and leisure shooter, not a top-notch competitor. None.

Alexander

Alexander,

I've never owned or shot a Walther, but always considered them to be high quality pistols.

Looks like this is not the case. Exactly what problems are shooters having with this particular

model that makes them unsuitable "for whatever purpose"?

Thank you,

mr alexander

+1

Both of mine have excellent two stage triggers. I have found them to be very reliable and not at all finicky with ammo. I have both 22 and 32.

Answering my namesake's inquiry:
The Walther GSP was a very modern and innovative pistol in the time of its invention. But this time is now fifty (50) years back.

It is still a good gun for those who like its weight distribution and get along with it. But the crucial word in my above advice was and is the word "new". Nobody in his right mind will today ever buy a NEW Walther GSP Expert. If you can get a used GSP in good condition (many here have been rode hard and put away wet, and will hardly hold the "9" ring out of a Ransom Rest), it is very affordable (used prices for the pre-Expert models start from 80 Euros [late 1960s and 1970, heavily used, old grip] and go up to 250, max 300 for virtually unused, cased, near new condition).

Alexander

A slightly different look from the states...... Most places I shoot have people who will be glad to let you wring out their pistol if you ask...... Shoot a few different pistols before you committbto a purchase...... i am glad to let people try my older equipment and I just got to feel a new Morini ultralight standard pistol..... It small community and usully quite friendly

I would buy the match grade pistol. Plinkers are OK but eventually you are going to buy a match grade pistol anyway, if you continue to shoot, so why bother with the in between step. Don't overlook some of the old standbys like the Des69 or Izh35. They shoot very well and are reasonable in price. Good luck...

It may be prudent to shoot some other pistols before making a decision. Plinking pistols won't have the design features of a dedicated match pistol. So, as others have noted, if you really want a target pistol then buying one initially may be best. As previously mentioned, the Hammerli Xesse Sport is a (less expensive) version of the 208 and (IMO) falls somewhere between a plinker and a dedicated match trigger sport pistol.

Edit: one feature I have learned about on the Xesse Sport is the pistol comes with a composite (i.e. plastic) trigger. Here in the states, Larry's Guns fits an aftermarket aluminum trigger with a few other modifications that puts the trigger 'system' close to the Hammerli 208 (not 208s). That may not help in Europe.

Powertube,
If you like target shooting, get a used (but in good condition) target pistol such as Hammerli 208s, FAS 6007, Feinwerkbau AW93, Matchgun MG, Morini CM22, Pardini SP, Tesero, Unique DES 69, etc. All of these pistols are accurate, have 2-stage adjustable triggers, and parts and gunsmith support should be readily available for these guns in Europe (I am clueless how difficult it is to have repairs done in other countries). A great trigger is a fundamental feature of a target pistol and trigger control is 95% of the essential skills needed for competent target shooting, period. So, go get one or more of the above guns. You can plink like crazy with any of these guns; you'll just need to change mags more often. Dipnet

I bought the Ruger. I bought the upgrades. Do not waste your time if you are used to shooting good guns at your club. You will never be happy with it and always wonder why you did not buy something good.

I bought a Hammerli 215 and would not shoot a Ruger again if I was sponsored by them. I sold it not long after buying the Hammerli.

My friend has an Xesse and it is very nice as well, much better than a Ruger could dream to be.

re thoughts about buying a S&W victory... the one I bought was a total piece of junk. cheap parts, assembled poorly, and was an overall mess. spent a bunch of money on trigger mod and some other stuff, none of which really improved it. moral: if you start with junk, then junk it will always be !! conclusion: spend the money to begin with and get something quality, because if you don't, you'll regret it later.