TargetTalk

Hello,

I have been a member of a club for the past 20 yrs, during which things have really gone downhill.
The club was founded in 1935 as a bullseye pistol club and has a long history. We even used to send a team to Camp Perry, but that was before my time there.
We used to have a bullseye league that had monthly competitions. We also used to host a number of int'l matches, including FP, sport pistol, standard pistol, CF, AP, and even RF with nice turning targets.
Now, the only "matches" are unsanctioned events in things like "cowboy" and all the various "shoot the bad guy" stunts. (You could shoot a perfect score with a slingshot and a handful of rocks.)
We also have three weeknights a week of junior activities.
We've lost a lot of good members. And, the ones that are joining now.... Well, let's just say the challenge is keeping people from shooting holes through the walls and roof.

Here's the thing, we have CMP and NRA affiliation yet fulfill nothing of which these organizations stand for.

I realize I'm going to have to invest time and effort to turn things around.
Any ideas, or, similar experiences?

Thanks for your help,
Jim

You're not alone. The Tactikool Tommies have taken over just about everything.

Having said that, I think one of the strongest points you can make is that the precision disciplines teach shooters how NOT to shoot up the roof, baffles, and support columns. Another is that a "defensive" shooter who only practices at under 10 yards will be helpless against a rifle-armed opponent. A precision shooter is in FAR better circumstance.

On top of this, there's room at the top. With the professional military teams out of International Pistol, an aspiring amateur could make a serious run and get somewhere...probably pretty fast. And the U.S. International Muzzle-Loading Team is always looking for talent, too.

Finally, with the precision disciplines, you spend your day shooting, not standing around while someone else shoots.

I have to chuckle. At the Desert Midwinter we had a couple of "taktikools" wander in to see what the fuss was about.

We started the 2700 at the 50 yard line. They were completely boggled at the scores. When Rapid Fire came around they were even more astounded.

Maybe you need to put together some open matches and drag in some shooters from other clubs to show what's being done.

Short answer, probably not on your own. I believe that you need at least 3-5 good people in a club to help you keep a section alive, and a lot more than that participating. Once it get below that you get overrun and squeezed out.

It's the same worldwide I'm afraid, our precision shooting disciplines here in New Zealand have been shrinking steadily over the last 10-15 years. The number of clubs that used to have ISSF sections is reducing, and it's the same old people still doing it with only a small number of newbies. Compounding the problem is some of the administrators, they seem to have their head in the sand, and often damage the sport by pushing their own agendas.

An additional problem is that the "tactitools" can also drive away the precision shooters as well as the parents of aspiring junior shooters. If I'm shooting free pistol at my local range, I pretty much pack it up and leave when the spray-and-pray crowd shows up. I've seen parents of juniors look a little taken aback when the "tactitool" comes in with his pistol slung low in a holster on his hip, or when guys start dumping 20 round magazines downrange.

Solution? You got me. One local range adopted a "no more than 6 rounds in a magazine rule", but it's hard to enforce when access to the range is via keycard and there's no range officer.

Yes, lots of skid marks on the walls and ceilings of the indoor range.

One of the frustrations I had to put up with at my local range was when they put a berm in at the 30-yard line of what had been a 50-yard range...to make a seventh pit for the Tacikewl crowd. Which crippled my training for FP and two MLAIC events. And the MLAIC stuff I'm quite serious about.

First, I think speaking disparagingly of any of the other shooting disciplines feeds the anti-2nd Amendment folks' efforts to divide and and conquer. Furthermore, speaking negatively about other disciplines just because they happen to be more popular sounds like sour grapes.

You catch more flies with honey. I suggest trying to find 1-2 other folks who are already interested in precision events to help you out. Once you've got a couple people to help, see if you can host some sort of open house during a popular club event ( do you have such open houses? Maybe a club bbq or popular shooting event?) or inviting some of the existing competition shooters and others to shoot in a precision event you host...perhaps you could also have some loaner guns available for folks to use. If your club can accomodate, whenever an action event is hosted, offer to host a precision side event with a small trophy/prize for the action shooters to try out. Just some thoughts.

FWIW, I started off in competition heavily involved in IPSC/USPSA in my teens, but also got involved in 10m AP and 3P sporter AR in high school. More recently, I've been shooting more 10m AP and NRA bullseye because it takes up a lot less time than shooting USPSA. I also shoot sporting and skeet for fun, and trap, since that's about the only shooting my dad does anymore.

Hello and "Thank You" to everyone,

There's a business meeting coming up tomorrow. I've put together a two page handout listing as many if the positive aspects of our affiliations, of which we are not only not availing ourselves, but quite possibly, totally ignorant of. (Probably a better path forward than going in with a list of complaints.)

My hope is that a few people will be curious enough to want to know more, or at least, get out of the way so I can possibly run an informal clinic/intro short course of fire.
With the new EIC service pistol rules, as but one example, the list of acceptable pistols is so huge that most folks can likely take part. More importantly, perhaps they may even feel like it's something they're missing out of by not giving it a try.
We'll see.
I don't expect an overnight cure, but will keep y'all informed as things progress.
It would be nice to think that at some point soon, I'll be able to announce a sanctioned match here on the forum.

Thanks,
Jim

I don't think it is a problem of a single club, but of the sport itself. I've only started a few months ago, but being 47 and considered almost a kid in my club is telling of a problem of not having enough new people becoming active international / olympic / issf / bullseye shooters. We are over 600 people at my shooting club and only two of us actively train, and a small group of people shoot regularly.

The attractiveness of the tactical and IPSC disciplines is very understandable from a sport and social point of view. I've tried IPSC myself but you need to keep too many things in mind, I'm more linear. We have a lot of people in my club doing both, but usually training only one and doing the other one for fun.

Personally, I would love to see many more people getting into this kind of shooting. Being a minority sport has the advantage of being very friendly, but also risks its disappearance. I'm trying to bring more people to try out a session of Air Pistol with me or a club coach. Talking about the sport and breaking pre-conceived ideas is tough but necessary.

Inside my club and in other clubs there are people that want to do things. I'm in the process of finding enough of them and proposing events that are also helpful for the current members (like presentation on the shooting books I've read and bringing ammo manufacturers for tests).

You are the kind of person that does things instead of just talking. You are the best kind of person :)

The action disciplines are more attractive to the newer crop of handgun owners. One doesn't have to put in so much effort to become reasonably proficient. There are so many other shooting sports to choose from today and other attractions, from video games to golf for a young person with less free time that the crop of shooters is spread thinly. The military propped up bullseye pistol shooting for decades and it was pretty much the only game in town. One thing that has hurt the sport is the lack of people interested in running matches. When the stalwarts who ran matches for many years retire, usually there is no one to step up. It is much more rewarding for most people to shoot, rather than run matches. Some old shooters, like me, have physical maladies that finally make 2700 shooting a thing of the past. When a new gun owner looks for videos on the internet, he/ she won't be looking for people shooting precision pistol matches. They are about as much fun as watching paint dry. These things have all contributed to the decline in the sport. Now the question is how to generate excitement about a sport that isn't exciting. I would start by announcing that you want volunteers at all levels to meet at the range and start a developmental pistol team. The purpose would be to train new shooters in the sport and develop seasoned shooters. The ultimate goal would be to have traveling team(s) to major competitions. At the same time, you would announce that you would like to train people who might be interested in running matches. This would require that they meet a few times to get familiar with the NRA rules and set up and conduct of matches. This all is going to require quite an effort on your part and if you can get some old seasoned former masters to help you get the programs off the ground, you'll have a beginning.

I'd love to give advice, but find myself in as much of a predicament as 6string or worse.

Was/am a member of a precision shooting club whose focus was small bore pistol and rifle shooting according to ISSF rules and the Shooting Federation of Canada (SFC). The city shut us down by forcing us out of the range we were using in the basement of City Hall. The club still exists on paper, and the BoD (mostly the president alone) is looking for a new space. I'd love the club to have the ambition to aim bigger and build something like the Red River Marksmanship Center (http://www.rrrmc.com). But it seems more like the BoD members want to build small, keep quiet, and have somewhere to shoot through the remainder of their retirement. To be fair, my jaded assessment might be considered a little unfair as there are no savings or revenue to put towards building a new facility. And I'm hoping them the best to reopen and will stick by them. I've been trained and certified as a Range Officer through the Provincial shooting federation and will be happy to help the club in that fashion when they reopen.

To not lose practice, I joined another indoor club. But they have zero programs or competition. Have to say, the targets I use and my shooting style and pistols have gained some attention while I'm at the club. And only a few start down the road of mocking 22LR compared to their "real" calibres. And successfully shooting my usual average in slow fire while the range is filled with larger calibre pistols including a 44 magnum revolver in he stall next to me is something I'm kind of proud of and can only think of as an advantage to learning how to deal with distractions.

I've been trying to think of the best way to approach the club ownership to advertise an informal precision night. Not aiming for competitions just yet. Just working through the SFC marksmanship badges or the NRA Winchester Marksmanship program. IMO, even just posting running averages for precision targets might provide a good incentive for others to join me. I just feel quite a bit out of place as a brand new club member, and novice shooter with no competition experience, taking on any responsibilities of organising or overseeing such a program.

I've been heavily involved politically and organisation wise in many youth groups and parent associations (locally, provincially, and nationally) and really didn't want shooting sports to be one of the activities that takes a back seat to the business side of things. But don't think I'll have any other choice.

All that long windedness to say: Any pointers to promote a marksmanship program? And I think a similar approach might work for 6string. Promote the marksmanship program to the club as a way of limiting damage to the range by improving the basic skills of all members. Earning badges could be a way to grant privileges or know who to ask for help to monitor other shooters.

That is bad luck, I've seen it happen often enough in countries which don't allow the tacticool crowd to use their guns for combat, I can't imagine what its like in countries where people do have an excuse to practice for Wolfenstein with real guns.

Our local state shooting range has been taken over, basically five people decided action pistol is the thing and have bullied everyone else out of the place, intimidated people out, cancelled life memberships etc.
The state govt poured millions into the place and now its a private facility for 5-10 people to spray bullets all over and a money-making opportunity for the 'owner' who now runs a dealership out of it.
The intimidation I've seen all over on shared use ranges. IPSC shooters turn up well before their allotted time and stand behind you scowling with a gun on their hip and their arms folded until its their turn to do 'proper shooting'. It makes the whole thing unpleasant.

There's not much I can really suggest, other than keep a tight ship with a solid club committee and don't give the 'tough-guys' an inch.

One thing that can set them back is beating them at their own game. I used to have a lot of fun shooting IPSC against people with race-guns with an as-issued Hipower shooting minor and watching their faces drop. Their faces dropped further when they tried it themselves and found it wasn't some magical gun, plus a 5lb trigger and magazine safety is a lot of work compared with what they were shooting.
That and throwing in a few 'long-range' stages, ie anything over 5 yards.

Unfortunately thats the way the world is going.

The only way to train cats is to convince them what you want is in their best interests, its the same with people.
Developing core marksmanship skills is essential to any kind of shooting. Getting past the 'but 90% of shootouts take place at a range of 3 yards or less' argument is tricky and sometimes I can't even be bothered.

This is apt, a promo Shooting Australia did for the upcoming Commonwealth Games in Brisbane.

The use of the word 'dominated' is interesting, Freudian, not that its true.
Shooting Australia does not administer IPSC, as far as I can see and I can't find a policy it seems to be focused on Olympics, Commonwealth Games and World Cups.
Service Match is not international, the others are moderately popular but not radically more so than ISSF, my state doesn't have enough plates shooters to put together a two-man team, Our state WA championships drew 10 Auto and 15 Revolver local shooters - level with or behind Rapid-Fire and Free, - not that any of this would be enough to convince a one-eyed two-handed spray shooter who thinks his what he shoots is all-important and everyone else should be relegated.

Well, Sean .... Obviously doesn't know who Shooting Australia are and what their roll is. His ignorance tells the story really doesn't it.

I used to enjoy annoying the 2 handed shooters by referring to them as "hobby shooters".

Are there some action shooters with whom you could team up with to create some cross over? Me vs them attitudes encourage folks to choose one side or another. If you can find a way for folks to do both disciplines, you increase your starting talent pool. There will always be playful banter between the disciplines, and the action shooting will certainly appeal to my generation of Halo and Call of Duty players, so increasing your presence with established shooters is just as important as appealing to new shooters.

j-team wrote: I used to enjoy annoying the 2 handed shooters by referring to them as "hobby shooters".

We nickname them "plinkers", "tincanners" etc. I feel pity with the two-handed "sprayers". And i feel pity with the clubs where that kind of "athletes" are outnumbering the one-hand shooters.

Soupy44 wrote:Are there some action shooters with whom you could team up with to create some cross over? Me vs them attitudes encourage folks to choose one side or another. If you can find a way for folks to do both disciplines, you increase your starting talent pool. There will always be playful banter between the disciplines, and the action shooting will certainly appeal to my generation of Halo and Call of Duty players, so increasing your presence with established shooters is just as important as appealing to new shooters.

My current club is a broad church, everyone gets a fair go and there is some crossover. In my experience of other places its the tough-guy shooters who generate the us-vs-them attitude and the lower their shooting ability the more they promote division. I guess if there's no-one around who can shoot better than them they won't get shown up.

We nickname them "plinkers", "tincanners" etc. I feel pity with the two-handed "sprayers". And i feel pity with the clubs where that kind of "athletes" are outnumbering the one-hand shooters.

They can easily achieve critical mass, and if they decide to can turn on what is now the minority and effectively marginalise them very quickly, that seems to be their instinct as exemplified by 'Sean' crashing the Shooting Australia post and rubbishing Olympic shooting.

If the average person here knew what IPSC shooters get up to at the weekend - essentially spree-shooter training - the whole sport would be shut down in a matter of days.

Funny how life is: Last year - after a few months or procrastination I finally decided to join a close by range - and then it was closed.

I'm an AP shooter just starting out but serious.

Now I need somewhere else to shoot and get some instruction.

IIRC, Ben Franklin said we should hang together or we will surely hang separately. What with all the elitist attitude and denigrating of other shooting disciplines, it seems like a lot of folks here would prefer the latter alternative. FWIW, I’ve found the IPSC/USPSA crowd to be very welcoming. About the worst I’ve ever heard from them about ISSF disciplines was that they were slow and boring, and I’ve never heard anything insulting directed toward other shooters.

It's not either/or, only the Sith deal in absolutes. Both schools of thought can exist peacefully together within a club. Shooters can often be their own worst enemies, there are couple of comments in here that made me scratch my head a bit.

My advice is to do cool things with like minded people, if you can't get more people then you are kind of stuck for any form of meaningful local competition and you will have to travel some for sport and training. I did Archery at school as the rifle range had been condemned as unsafe (and wasn't picked for shotgun - not that it has affected me enough to bring it up in passing on an internet forum) which scratched the competitive shooting sport itch - maybe you would like that?

Getting the kids involved is a good way to breathe life into a sport. A high school shooting programme might act as a feeder, but will take some time to yield results of ongoing club members.