TargetTalk

Hi,

For bullseye, a Springfield 1911 Mil-Spec is about the only 1911 left on the list that I can legally buy here in Calif. Range Operators are illegal here, so are loaded's, and all Colts are history for us as well. I do own a Springfield 1911 Trophy Match, but its set up for IPSC limited now, and I would like a gun set up specifically for bullseye, accurized, and with anatomical grips like my Morini AP. Has anyone turned their Springfield Mil-Spec into a decent bullseye pistol, and if so how much do you figure you've put into it.

Thanks ..... Chris

Far be it from me to make you a criminal, but you'd be way better off selling it and then traveling to AZ or UT matches where you could do a FTF with a seller who has a good used gun and doesn't give a damn about CA. BIG savings!

Rover wrote:Far be it from me to make you a criminal, but you'd be way better off selling it and then traveling to AZ or UT matches where you could do a FTF with a seller who has a good used gun and doesn't give a damn about CA. BIG savings!

That would be an illegal interstate transfer under Federal law. CA law would probably say something negative about importing a non-approved gun too.

As for the 1911 mil-spec, the absolute minimum you would need is to have a gunsmith fit a barrel and bushing so that the lock up is tight and repeatable. You'll probably also want a trigger job to get it down to just over 3.5lbs. Not critical, but most folks like beavertail grip safeties. You'll probably also want to mount a red dot...the cheapest way is a slide mount. Other options include a grip mount (not recommended, and would interfere with anatomical grips, if that's how you really want to go) or a frame mount (Caspian, Weigand, Wilson Combat, and David Sams Customs are some options). I think Sams is the best currently available, but it's crazy expensive.

Anatomical grip options go from the cheap end with adjustable Herretts for about $90, to the most expensive Karl Nill grips which are about $250. Other options in between include Randall Fung, Dick Horton, and Rink grips. That said, a lot of top shooting folks don't like the anatomical grips for .45s...unless you have larger hands, anatomical grips might not fit you well, as they tend to had some width/girth to the 1911 frame.

Many Mil Specs have been turned into Bullseye guns. It's been a long time since I had the work done so I'm not sure about the price, but as sparky said a trigger job, fit target barrel / bushing and general cleanup should get you there in terms of accuracy.

For scope mounting slide mount is more common, but adds weight to the slide. Frame mount gives more freedom in load development and I prefer it because the recoil is faster and disturbs the gun less. It might decrease accuracy slightly, but I am not convinced it is significant.

Use a bullseye gunsmith. There are some decent gun-shop smiths, but there are also lots of hacks. Even if the smith is good, if he isn't familiar with bullseye accuracy he's not going to spend the time and effort in the right places for what we need. If you can find a local bullseye smith that you can work with that is the best situation. If not, any of the smiths on this forum can do the job for you.

One last comment. If you are just starting out you don't necessarily need a 1.5" gun. I know this is heresy, but the difference between a 1.5" gun and a 3" or 4" gun (at 50yds) in terms of score is small and may not even be observable in the hands of a marksman or sharpshooter. That said, if you have the money or if you can only be in the right frame of mind if you have the best, then go for it. Spend $2k accurizing the gun and another $2k+ on loading equipment and supplies and go for it. If not then ask the gunsmiths about options and recommendations and work with the one that you like best.

SteveT wrote:Many Mil Specs have been turned into Bullseye guns. It's been a long time since I had the work done so I'm not sure about the price, but as sparky said a trigger job, fit target barrel / bushing and general cleanup should get you there in terms of accuracy.

For scope mounting slide mount is more common, but adds weight to the slide. Frame mount gives more freedom in load development and I prefer it because the recoil is faster and disturbs the gun less. It might decrease accuracy slightly, but I am not convinced it is significant.

Use a bullseye gunsmith. There are some decent gun-shop smiths, but there are also lots of hacks. Even if the smith is good, if he isn't familiar with bullseye accuracy he's not going to spend the time and effort in the right places for what we need. If you can find a local bullseye smith that you can work with that is the best situation. If not, any of the smiths on this forum can do the job for you.

One last comment. If you are just starting out you don't necessarily need a 1.5" gun. I know this is heresy, but the difference between a 1.5" gun and a 3" or 4" gun (at 50yds) in terms of score is small and may not even be observable in the hands of a marksman or sharpshooter. That said, if you have the money or if you can only be in the right frame of mind if you have the best, then go for it. Spend $2k accurizing the gun and another $2k+ on loading equipment and supplies and go for it. If not then ask the gunsmiths about options and recommendations and work with the one that you like best.

Ok yeah thats helpful. I surely probably don't need a 1.5" gun to start out with, but when I started out in air pistol everybody said to get the Baikal to begin with which I did, and I didn't enjoy it very much. So two weeks latter I sold it and plunked down 2k for a Steyer LP-10 which at the time was one of the best, and everyday I really looked much more forward to shooting it than I did the Baikal even though the Baikal could easily out shoot me, the whole psychological thing I guess. So it sounds like I can expect to put about 2k into my Mil-Spec sans grips. And since originally posting this I've done alot of looking around and see alot of mil-spec springers that have been turned into bullseye pistols which has me feeling better. When I got my 1911 Trophy Match, I had talked with a guy over at Clarke Custom Gun's about getting it tuned up, so hopefully they are still in buisness as I know they have a long standing good rep and the guy was very cool I talked with. When you mention 2k on reloading supplies I assume your talking about getting something like a Dillion progressive? I've been reloading big bore rounds (.44 to .500) for years with my lowely Rock Chucker and Lee Turret presses along with Lee Carbide die sets, and have my own little system between the two that goes along pretty quickly. How much different is it reloading when talking loading .45acp for precision pistol work? Can it be done with the presses I have, is it just a matter of speed and quantity due to shooting a lot more rounds in practice? Guess I need to start reading up on that too. Thanks again!

Chris

The most important thing about making a 1911 competitive is generally the shooter. The Trophy Match you have for limited will work for a start, just change the recoil spring to whatever works best with your precision pistol (bullseye) ammo. No need for special grips, etc. (Most people do very well with the stock grips. Shoot the .22 and .45 with open sights and you'll learn a lot. After you shoot some "bullseye" for a while, then you'll have a better idea on what you want in the gun, accuracy, trigger, sights, etc.
CR

cloudswimmer wrote: ...everybody said to get the Baikal to begin with which I did, and I didn't enjoy it very much. So two weeks latter I sold it and plunked down 2k for a Steyer LP-10

I understand. I had both also and very very much preferred the LP10. I ofton go through the same stages, just a little slower than that, starting out with something that is 'good enough' then when I think it's holding me back or when I know I will stay with the sport, plunk down the big bucks on top equipment.

cloudswimmer wrote: ...So it sounds like I can expect to put about 2k into my Mil-Spec sans grips.

That was just a ball park figure I came up with off the top of my head. If you could buy a complete bullseye gun from Rock River, Les Baer or one of the bullseye gunsmiths it would be $2k+. You could pay less to fix up the SA Mil Spec depending on who does the work and what you have done.

cloudswimmer wrote: When you mention 2k on reloading supplies I assume your talking about getting something like a Dillion progressive? I've been reloading big bore rounds (.44 to .500) for years with my lowely Rock Chucker and Lee Turret presses along with Lee Carbide die sets, and have my own little system between the two that goes along pretty quickly. How much different is it reloading when talking loading .45acp for precision pistol work? Can it be done with the presses I have, is it just a matter of speed and quantity due to shooting a lot more rounds in practice? Guess I need to start reading up on that too.

Once again the $2k number was just a number, but I was thinking Dillon 650, Chronograph, Ransom Rest and supplies. Reloading for bullseye probably isn't that much different from what you are doing. I use a Dillon SDB and just take a little more care with my 50 yard loads. Short line and practice loads are cranked out quickly. Look around here and the Bullseye forum (http://www.bullseyeforum.net/) for typical bullseye loads and you'll be close.

cloudswimmer wrote: Thanks again!

Your welcome. And pay attention to what Cecil said (always pay attention to his posts).

Rover wrote:
"Far be it from me to make you a criminal, but you'd be way better off selling it and then traveling to AZ or UT matches where you could do a FTF with a seller who has a good used gun and doesn't give a damn about CA. BIG savings!"

Sparky wrote:
"That would be an illegal interstate transfer under Federal law. CA law would probably say something negative about importing a non-approved gun too."

Maybe you military types have heard, "Don't ask, don't tell.", in a different context.

It's one of those weird days when I agree with Rover and Cecil simultaneously.

The problem is the activism of CA police at Ranges. My understanding is that they look for people who might be doing something that makes perfect sense but violates the letter of the law.

But I don't go to CA and likely never will go much farther west than Las Vegas.

The mil spec can be made into a fine Wad gun. The trouble most times is finding a smith to do the work. You could try contacting Jon Eulette and seeing what he recommends. He is in CA, a competitive shooter who I believe is in the 2650 Club and is a bullseye gunsmith. Check the Bullseye Forums for his information.

A milspec gun can be made into a match worthy wadgun..... Gotta use techniques from the 30+ years ago to make it match worthy. Don't get me wrong the highest bullseye score was from the old times of peening rails, squeezing slides, welding up old colt barrels. It is less labor intensive to start with quality over sized parts. With your limitation its no fault of your own, but you might have to drop more $

jmdavis wrote:The problem is the activism of CA police at Ranges. My understanding is that they look for people who might be doing something that makes perfect sense but violates the letter of the law.

I only frequent one range, but it's one of two public ranges in the greater East Bay Area. I've never seen what you are referring to. I see quite a few LE people, mostly those practicing skills. I've never seen a civilian shooter hassled by LE for any reason except when the cops were called by the range officers.

To get back to the subject point, Is the OP aware that the guns which are no longer available for sale in California (due to roster non-inclusion) can still be transferred within the state? It's only import that's disallowed. A person to person transfer of a legal firearm within the state (meaning the seller who has the firearm resides in CA, as do you) is legal.

I'd watch the more active forums (Calguns.net is probably your best bet) for anyone wishing to sell a model you're interested in.

jky

divingin wrote:

jmdavis wrote:The problem is the activism of CA police at Ranges. My understanding is that they look for people who might be doing something that makes perfect sense but violates the letter of the law.

I only frequent one range, but it's one of two public ranges in the greater East Bay Area. I've never seen what you are referring to. I see quite a few LE people, mostly those practicing skills. I've never seen a civilian shooter hassled by LE for any reason except when the cops were called by the range officers.

To get back to the subject point, Is the OP aware that the guns which are no longer available for sale in California (due to roster non-inclusion) can still be transferred within the state? It's only import that's disallowed. A person to person transfer of a legal firearm within the state (meaning the seller who has the firearm resides in CA, as do you) is legal.

I'd watch the more active forums (Calguns.net is probably your best bet) for anyone wishing to sell a model you're interested in.

jky

Hmmmm ..... never seen that down here in Orange County (not that it doesn't happen), and I have two good friends who are LEO's (one city, one PD), and that subject never came up. Anyway yeah I'm aware of ptp transfers here, and have been keeping my eye out for sure. Thanks for the reminder though. Also I just realized the ED Brown Executive model is CA legal, and I'm seriously considering it. Any thoughts on Ed Brown?

C

cloudswimmer wrote:Has anyone turned their Springfield Mil-Spec into a decent bullseye pistol, and if so how much do you figure you've put into it.

Thanks ..... Chris

David Santurri in Massachusetts has a good reputation. He turned my SA MIL-SPEC into a great pistol. It's been twenty years so I can't comment on pricing.

Richard

I just had a Colt Mark IV Series 80 turned into a Bullseye gun. In the 30+ years I'd owned the gun, I'd not shot it that much, and I decided I would have it turned into a Bullseye pistol. On one of the other forums, many people spoke highly of Dave Salyer. A complete tightening, Kart fitted barrel, trigger job, installation of a slide mounted ultra dot was about $900. The weather here is a bit nasty most of the time right now, so I have only shot it at 50 feet, but it shoots a lot better now than it did before.

I also had him fit a new slow twist barrel, match sights and do a trigger job on a Beretta 92FS for use as a Excellence in Competition pistol. The 92 shot really well before, and I am really looking forward to shooting it at 50 yards.

I've been competing and building BE 1911 pistols in Ca since 89. Mil-spec can easily be built into 1.5" pistol. I've recently worked on some Sig Target 1911's. I recommend the Sig because its checkered front strap. $900 on gunbroker and legal. Sig has some MIM parts but can be replaced with better. Just add a match fit barrel and you're set.
Jon

Since you live in OC, come down to Escondido on the second Sunday of the month. We have NRA & CMP sanctioned matches with a good turnout. You can see a lot of different guns here.

Mark

Based on personal experience I would highly recommend Jon Eulette to build or modify you gun for Bullseye. He is an excellent smith and Master ranked shooter. Plus he attends the local SoCal matches.

MilSpec will require sights, sight machining, extended safety, a beavertail, barrel, barrel bushing, trigger and parts...

Then you have a Range Officer clone once that is done, if you decide to use the RRA bullseye scope rib PS1396 with sights then it might be cheaper as the slide will just need a few holes drilled and tapped vs being dovetailed.

I bought a MilSpec as a hardball gun and with the EIC rule changes a while back it is now my CHL loaded with 230gr FMJRN ammo. With a Brown fitted barrel bushing it does 4-5" groups at 50yds, the standard grip safety SUCKS for firing a box of ammo with. Internal parts are still MIM, and the slide/framer isnt fitted as tight when compared to other Target pistols.

Hi Chris, Send your Mil-Spec to Greg Derr. Greg Derr is a very respected

Bullseye Gunsmith. He knows how to build an accurate and reliable

Bullseye pistol. My son sent him a Springfield Mil-Spec and got back a

sub-two inch 50 yard wad pistol that is also legal for CMP matches.

I do not know how much Greg Derr charged my son. That's up to you

and Greg Derr. His Web site: http://www.derrprecision.com/

Tony(Corona, California)

Hi:

I and my two Bullseye friends are in So. Ca. Two of us bought Les Baer Premier 2's and one bought a Springfield Mil Spec. All of us took them to Jon Eulette (Banning Ca.) and he did his magic. All three guns shoot about the same load, feel about the same, and are accurate as heck. I think Jon believes the slide fit tends to be better on the Baers but in accuracy, they are about equal. If you go the Baer route , dont buy the 1.5 in gun( I mistakenly did that) , as Jon tosses the barrel anyway. Get 10,11,12,13,14,15 lb springs. All 3 of us were shooting lighter springs when the guns were new then progressed in weight as they broke in. Good luck.

Howard