TargetTalk

Does the shooter make the gun or the gun that makes the shooter? Meaning is it important for a shooter to have a good gun (say 10m pistol/rifle) to shoot accurately or does is it MORE important for a shooter to be good in shooting with whatever gun he has?

To be more specific, should I get a lower performing gun (say Daisy 747, than IZH 46m) to learn how to shoot then upgrade to a better one or should I get a gun that will help me to be a better shooter.

If you can afford it, get good equipment off the bat. A good rifle (I don't shoot much pistol) will shoot so much better than a lower quality one that you will be able to more accurately assess your technique and make improvements. I kinda think its like trying to race F1 with a Toyota Camry.
Since you mentioned air pistol, even the top of the line air pistol is pretty affordable, and you don't need much extra gear. Now rifle would be a different story...
Matt

You need only need 3 things to make sure you can be your best.
A good trigger, adjustable sights and a gun that shoots where it is pointed.

They both meet that requirement for a starting gun, but I would spring for the IZH 46m it is more than just a level up from the 747 and not that much more money. It also holds it's value well.

Once you start keeping them all in the 9 ring then go out and buy a $2K PCP.

- Dave

"If you can afford it, get good equipment off the bat."

Guys on here can't seem to figure out what that is.

"You need only need 3 things to make sure you can be your best.
A good trigger, adjustable sights and a gun that shoots where it is pointed."

MY advice?

A USED older top-of-the-line gun, no matter how "handicapped" you're told it will make you.

It won't!

Yes and no.
IMHO, you do need to get up to a certain level of equipment, so that you are not fighting the gun. The gun should be an extension of you, so that you don't have to think about it. Just think about the sight picture.
Example, I shot a stock Daisy 953. The trigger was so bad, that dealing with pulling that rough trigger distracted me when holding on target, so my score DROPPED, at least 20 points (maybe more, it was too long ago). And I was really frustrated with that trigger, so my metal game was off. I just gave up shooting that rifle until I could "fix" the trigger.

I agree with Rover.
If you can afford it, get a used Tier 1 pistol. It is MUCH better than a new tier 3 pistol.
I shoot an "obsolete" co2 powered Walther CPM1, that I bought used from Pilkingtons.
I have been very happy with that purchase, enough that aside from the desire to have a NEW pistol, I have no real intention of upgrading to a current CA pistol. The old Walther fits my hand, and I can't outshoot the pistol. A bad shot is my fault.

I have a Daisy 747, and I can tell you that my Walther is MUCH easier to shoot well.
One simple reason is that the wood grip on the Walther can and was ground and filled to FIT MY hand. Can't do that with the plastic grip on the metal frame of the 747.
I had a Diana 5M, and the grip/frame was TOO FAT for my small hand, and it was difficult to hold well. So it was just uncomfortable to shoot. But I could and did shoot decent scores with that pistol.

I have tier 1, 2 and 3 guns. While shooting a tier 3 gun might be fun, like casual target shooting or plinking, when it comes to serious shooting for score, I'll grab the tier 1 gun every time.

Having said this, I think Don Nygord did win a match with a modified 717. But then again he was a world class shooter, and did not need the help us novices need.

However, if you cannot afford a used tier 1 gun, then by all means get what you can afford, and make the best of it. Hey I can't afford a new $2,500 AP, that is why I bought my used and obsolete Walther. Better to shoot than to not shoot.

A quote from a HM and multiple award holder.

"Buy all the points you can afford...shoot the rest."

Buy the best you can afford.

That way, you can not blame the equipment for a lousy shot.

Regards,
Cranky

mwhc00 wrote:Does the shooter make the gun or the gun that makes the shooter? Meaning is it important for a shooter to have a good gun (say 10m pistol/rifle) to shoot accurately or does is it MORE important for a shooter to be good in shooting with whatever gun he has?

To be more specific, should I get a lower performing gun (say Daisy 747, than IZH 46m) to learn how to shoot then upgrade to a better one or should I get a gun that will help me to be a better shooter.

There's a misconception here I'd like to correct, if you'd let me. A Daisy 747 or an IZH 46m is not a "lower performing gun." It is a different model with different characteristics, some less suited to Olympic Air Pistol 10m than those of a Steyr LP10.

I want to emphasize this because you will quickly learn to appreciate that what you really need to shoot well is your brain. Your gun and your body will give you very specific clues on what went right (or wrong) with a shot, but your brain needs to learn how to recognize them and adjust your body and gun accordingly. Different guns with different characteristics will give you different feedback.

One odd misconception I've noticed in the firearms world is that better equipment will somehow teach someone fundamentals faster. To draw a parallel, no one would expect that putting a budding musician on a high quality Steinway piano will allow them to play amazing music. It may help them recognize errors in their technique before they become ingrained habits, but only if they are actively engaged in the process of learning to play better. I would imagine that a very similar logic applies here.

mwhc00 wrote:Does the shooter make the gun or the gun that makes the shooter? Meaning is it important for a shooter to have a good gun (say 10m pistol/rifle) to shoot accurately or does is it MORE important for a shooter to be good in shooting with whatever gun he has?

To be more specific, should I get a lower performing gun (say Daisy 747, than IZH 46m) to learn how to shoot then upgrade to a better one or should I get a gun that will help me to be a better shooter.

Well, if you have the discipline to learn to shoot with a 'lower performing' gun and move on to a better one later this will stand you in good stead.

There are a good number of people who can only shoot well if everything is adjusted exactly to their liking, and others who can pick up almost any gun and shoot well enough with a few sighters.
You can guess which of the above group learned to shoot and which group took the 'easy' path.

I think the best option is to get a basic middle of the road gun, don't spend any time tuning it up, and learn to shoot.
Then a better gun should only give an improvement, but without discipline you will find yourself slipping back so its still good to pull out your starter gun from time to time.

Buy the best you can afford. Become "intimate" with it. Understand all workings of it, and practice. When you are ready to improove your equipment, you and only you will know. Trust yourself and be truthful to youself on every shot. Learning to properly shoot is not a steady curve upward, but a overall slope upward filled with small plateaus. The level spots are when you can become exhausted and then, just like that, something new clicks, and the upslope comes again and you shoot a new high. Thats what makes it so freakin' fun

I just purchased a Match Gun MGH1 mechanical for $1111 USD delivered to Houston UPS from Krale-Schietsports. Gerrit helped me thru the process and answered all my questions. Great guy. I was attracted to this pistol because the ones selling in the US were ultra high end and not in my budget, or cheaper, youth, ambi pistols that i was concerned about developing bad habits with. Must not be much money in this intermediate level of air pistols.

In hunting air rifles, I started with a cheap springer and couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, LOL. I thought it was me for awhile, but started reading how difficult springers are to shoot. I then went to a .25 cal Marauder (PCP) and began to shoot 5/16" 10 shot groups off my shooting sticks at 25 yards. Sold that and moved up to a .22 cal regulated BSA R-10 (HuMa regulator) and I'm LOVING the hole on hole accuracy it has. It was ALL the gun after all!

I came upon Krale by reading this forum and the MGH1 appears to be a high end Tier 2 or low end Tier 1 (maybe you experienced guys can say). The price was right where I (I mean my wife) needed it to be. Looking forward to receiving it Friday or Monday and am setting up an ISSF 10 meter shooting lane upstairs now that the kids have moved out. Take a look, there are several left (including the Light version that ships without the extra cylinder for $144 USD less) and the grips are sized for right and left handed shooters too. I wanted every advantage I could get given my experience with air rifles. Happy hunting (uhhh...shopping).

turtlehead wrote:Buy the best you can afford...

...that is 100% reliable!
...that is fully supported in your country!