TargetTalk

I'm considering a PCP rifle for smallbore metallic silhouette practice and formal 10 meter competition (if I can find matches here in Phoenix). How much equipment, not including the rifle, is necessary, e.g., tank, etc. and a rough idea of the cost. I'm looking for a realistic, not low ball cost estimate. What if any are the disadvantages of a PCP rifle? The only reason I'm considering going PCP is the cocking effort necessary to shoot more than 25 shots with one of the FWB 600 series rifles aggravates my shoulder and elbow (This is what happens when you get well into the older adult category). The FWB 300S was the SSP rifle with the lowest cocking effort that I could come up with, the Walther LGR was significantly higher. Thanks, Tom

Hi Tom,

I found some airgun matches in Rio Salado range, we can possibly car pool. There is one tomorrow but I won't be able to go. http://www.phoenixairgun.net/info

I went the PCP route, the biggest cost is the tank. Luckily a friend is letting me borrow his since he doesn't dice anymore. I had to pay to get it hydro tested ($60) and then bought an adapter for the DIN valve (yoke to DIN), another $50 because I didn't want to wait for it to be shipped.

I think buying a used tank out of hydro will be cheapest then you just have it tested and buy the adapter.

Zoran - Thanks for the information. I returned the 300S I recently purchased due to a mechanical problem. Shooting it (cocking it) for a few days got me thinking about a PCP gun. Car-pooling sounds like a great idea, when I get whatever I get. Thanks again and see you a week from Sunday. Tom

The standard scuba tank is a 80 cubic foot aluminum tank. Brand new they are $160-$200. The most common valves on them are "din" or "k" valves. Your airgun will almost certainly ship with an adapter with din threads... consequently, purchasing a k valve tank requires no additional parts or adapters. Buying a k valve tank means you need an adapter called a "k valve to din adapter" commonly called a "yoke". They are easy to find, at $30-60.

As has been mentioned, the cheapest way to go is to buy a used tank thats out of hydro.
I picked up mine at an estate sale for $20, payed $50 to get it hydro tested, and added a yoke for $35.

Swapping from ssp to pcp will let you shoot a lot more, not just from reduced fatigue, but through economy of motion. Easily twice as much, in the same amount of time.
Compare this video to your shot pace with a ssp...
https://youtu.be/rhZx0-bW-qw

When buying old scuba tanks do not buy any aluminum tanks made by Luxfer in the 70s though the 80s. They used defective aluminum alloy. More than a few of their tanks blew up and killed people. If you get one of these and it hydros you are fine, but I have now had two that failed hydro. You get the tank back with a hole drilled through it. The good news is aluminum tanks will get you over $40 at scrap aluminum dealers.

One of many articles about the old Luxfer tanks. New ones are fine.
http://www.southerntasdivers.com.au/WHS ... arning.pdf


Chip

TomJ

The FWB300s is not a SSP (Single Stroke Pneumatic) rifle, but is a spring piston rifle.

Try to fond someone who will let you try thier FWB 600 series (600, 601, 602, 603), or Anschutz 2002 to see what a SSP is like. I think the cocking effort is less, and if I remember correctly the effort is on the e"outstroke" instead of the instroke.

They are great for offhand practice, but do require more effort that a compressed air rifle (the trade for fewer dollars spent on extra equipment).

As with all athletics, we need more stretching and conditioning as we age, but a training program from a certified trainer, and massage has helped me greatly. At 70 I still shoot a RWS 75 (same age and size as a FWB300). Gave up the shooting jacket, but that has helped my small bore schuetzen shooting.

Good luck.

Don't overlook CO2 match air rifles. More shots per fill with FWB 300S cocking effort. Many of my clients like them for the same purposes you desire. The FWB C60 and C62 or (if the Gods favor you) a Steyr Match 91 each of which sell for $hundreds less then comparable PCP "vunderguns" from Das Fatherland. [Example: FWB P70 ~$1100 v. FWB C60 ~$750]

Bulk fill tanks and filling readily available in most metropolitan areas as CO2 is the primary charging source for all beverage dispensing equipment. More then likely you can but a 10 LBS tank with valve for under $70 filled that will last a l-o-n-g time.

I can't believe Rover hasn't weighed in on this topic. He hates anything, rifle or pistol, that you don't have to tear a muscle cocking.

I would second Jim's opinion. The CO2 guns are great for practice. They replaced the ssp, spring air, what ever you want to call it, rifles after the UIT went to 60 shots for men in rifle and pistol. I personally bought one as quickly as possible. Any one who has cocked a Walther LGR 60 times at the Trials in that sweat box in Phoenix knows how hard it is.

The CO2 s are just as accurate as the current CA rifles but just don't have the bells and whistles of today's guns. I believe though that you could be semi-competitive in lots of club matches with the CO2 or older CA guns.

I have and shoot a co2 Walther CPM1 AP.
So far, I have not had any co2 lockup problem from heat, but I don't shoot in 100+F temp.
That is where the CA guns have the advantage of being less sensitive to heat than co2.
Other than that, I have been quite happy with my co2 AP, enough that I do not have a real interest in buying a new CA AP.
So as Jim said, co2 is a very good choice, if you are not shooting in HOT temp.

For hot temp shooting, I will have to leave it to those who shoot in that temp.

Don't buy PCP OR CO2.

Find an old Walther LGR SSP. They're cheap, cheap to repair, and were once world beaters (if you've got the stuff).

BTW I talked to the local AR shooter yesterday and he says there is nothing "real" happening in Phoenix. You should try Rio Salado for some fun, though.

OOPS! Somebody woke up Rover.

Rover, when was the last time you shot a 60 match with an LGR? There aren't enough swamp coolers in the entire state to make that comfortable or competitive. And yeah they once were the best thing going and I had one, but was first in line for a CO2 when they went to 60 shots.

Art Cook won the Olympics with a Morgan-Johnson prone rifle in 48 but today it takes a Bleiker. Time for you to get in your Model T Ford and go down to the gun store and get something that shoots.

The LGR is very hard to cock. The 300s is extremely easy to cock in comparison. I don't know how the 600 series compare.

The recoilless springer FWB 300S model require ~7 ft/lb to cock. There is not a match air rifle that requires less energy to cock them these recoilless springers from Feinwerkbau. SSP match air rifles such as the Walther LGR/LG-90/LGM-2, or Feinwerkbau 600 Series (600/601/602/603) require about 18 ft/lb of force to cock.

10 year old boys & girls shooting 60 shot air rifle matches in Germany are still using SSP air rifles.

TomJ wrote:I'm considering a PCP rifle for smallbore metallic silhouette practice and formal 10 meter competition

If your silhouette shooting involves any short timed events (ie. a few seconds per shot), the older P70 series FWB PCP rifles are the cats meow. There ambi forward cocking mechanism works great for timed/speed events, plus they still have amazing accuracy for 10m events.

"10 year old boys & girls shooting 60 shot air rifle matches in Germany are still using SSP air rifles."

But those obese USA girly-men can't handle them..

scrane wrote:The LGR is very hard to cock. I don't know how the 600 series compare.

The reason the LGR is difficult to cock is the awkward closing stroke that compresses the air, while the FWB 600 series is easier due to the cocking arm that closes inward towards the body, allowing a more efficient leverage.

Rover wrote:"10 year old boys & girls shooting 60 shot air rifle matches in Germany are still using SSP air rifles."

But those obese USA girly-men can't handle them..

Some of which are even Walther LGR ... which BTW is the easiest of all the SSP match air rifles to scope. Great AR for silhouette practice and a piece of shooting history as the match air rifle that transformed 10M competition into the modern era.

This prior TargetTalk tread provides some insightful commentary on the LGR:

viewtopic.php?t=42544

Why is it I can only access what this "Rover" character is writing by clicking on "Display this post"?

TomJ wrote:I'm considering a PCP rifle for smallbore metallic silhouette practice and formal 10 meter competition (if I can find matches here in Phoenix).

Hi Tom,

My name is Rich, and I'm in Mesa. I'm currently going down a similar road as you on getting started in 10m air rifle competition. There are matches at Rio Salado Sportsman Club (off Usery Pass Road) in Mesa every Wednesday night. There is an open practice session that I believe starts around 5, with the match starting around 6. Every week is pistol and every other week is pistol and rifle. Once a month, they do rifle only. For the sake of simplicity, if I recall correctly, other than the rifle only match, they use the NRA pistol target (again for simplicity's sake).

In addition to the Wednesday night at Rio, there's a Tuesday night match in north Phoenix/Sun City at 99th Ave and Peoria. If I recall the shooting starts around 5pm, but if you want more info, shoot me a PM and I'll put you in touch with my buddy Bob who shoots it every week. He and I know each other from my background in USPSA, 3-Gun and NRA Action Pistol. I've recently, "retired," from the running/gunning due to physical injuries sustained in college sports and working for Uncle Sugar. I've started taking up Precision Rifle Series, tactical rifle shooting. As a result, I came to air gun shooting as a means to be better at position shooting. Who knew that after a couple of trips to Airguns of Arizona and firing like 10 rounds out of a real 10m rifle that I'd be hooked on this sport too.

Truth be told, I just spent a good bit of time talking with Kip at AOA about possibly picking up a FWB 800x. Probably a bit extreme for a first rifle, but given my shooting background, not owning a stock firearm and most of all understanding the principle of, 'buy once, cry once', it's probably acceptable. My father is a big Field Target shooter and has been a huge resource on PCP air rifles.

So, that's a really long winded way of saying that excluding the rifle, the tanks and such are not that large of a hit on the wallet in the grand scheme of things. There are many places where you can buy tanks from other shooters as they upgrade, downgrade or sell based on the direction of the wind. My father does this a lot. I don't ever see getting to the point of buying a compressor, but I suppose like most things, if a small shooting 'group,' were formed and all chipped in, anything's possible.

Hope that wasn't overly long winded and at least got you some info on shooting in Phoenix metro. I'm going to Phoenix R&G tomorrow for their 500 yard prone match, shooting in the F-Class division. While there, I'm going to ask around if there are any matches on that side of town for 10m. Always nice to have options other than the backyard.

Rich

As an aside, one of the guys at AOA has a rather nice Diana 100 that he's looking to sell at a more than reasonable price. If not for gleaning a good bit of info from my father's experience with PCP's, I can honestly say that I would consider buying this rifle.

Rich