TargetTalk

So, I browse on over to the ISSF webpage to see what disciplines the ISSF endorses:
http://www.issf-sports.org/

Am I just blind/incompetent, but WTF is a simple list of the disciplines, equipment, and rules for each?

Seems I have to look at the Rules book and not get scared off by the Constitution crap till 30 pages in there's finally a list of events.

But, WTH are the rules for each event?!?

300 pages in there's the "how" events are run.

Now I'm frustrated.

Very poor invititation and welcome to anyone who is interested in or has firearms and would like to explore discipline options.

As a technical writer by trade, and as someone interested in shooting sports, the ISSF Rules documentation really bothers me.

As someone unfamiliar with the ISSF and the events, the rules and the website are near useless.

Some of it is my fault then. Seems that my Acrobat reader is consistently skipping pages while using the mouse scroll wheel.

Teach me to go looking and post in a rush.

But at the end of the Rules there's still no nice easy "white paper" description of each event.

My point still stands. You can't go to the ISSF webpage and get a clear picture of the different ISSF events.

Yes, you are correct. The games and the rules for the games are not readily apparent on the ISSF website. But, once you get the hang of the rulebook, it is all there.

There are Olympic events and other events. There are 5 sections of the rule book devoted to these events.

Section 6 covers all the rules that pertain to all the events, like target standards, range standards, match administration and operation, and finals for Olympic events.

Section 7 covers the rifle events, Olympic and other. If you want to know the rifle rules, this is where it is. Covers legal positions, clothing, equipment, order of fire (ie, kneeling, prone, standing) time limits, etc.

Section 8 covers the pistol events, Olympic and other.

Section 9 covers the shotgun events, Olympic and other.

Section 10 covers running target, no longer an Olympic event.

I know this doesn't help the guy who is coming into the site cold with no idea of how to find stuff. But, now at least YOU know.

... or you have local match and jury (actually other shooters) are not familiar with all 300 pages. And someone has a problem... crossfire... malfunction etc.
It takes time to find what to do. It is not normal.

I noticed at World Cup: 30-50% air pistol shooters don't remove safety flags during dry firing after they were called to the line. I asked one why... shooter is not sure if it is allowed. Allowed. I needed 15 minutes to find it in rule book.

ruig wrote:I noticed at World Cup: 30-50% air pistol shooters don't remove safety flags during dry firing after they were called to the line. I asked one why... shooter is not sure if it is allowed. Allowed. I needed 15 minutes to find it in rule book.

6.11.1.1.f to save other people time trying to find it.

Here's an exercise for those who would like to know the rulebook(s) a bit better, keeping in mind that the #0 rule of any rulebook is:
"Don't memorize the rulebook"!
They change too darn much ......

Just learn the general area where particular types of rules are ......

Go to the website below and grab one of the Level-1 Officials tests that USA Shooting has out.
On each answer (most in fact) there is more than 1 answer in the rulebook ... find all the instances that pertain .... this is probably a 3-4 hour exercise for each test. You will learn the areas of each book, and after you do the first, the second and 3rd are a bit (not a whole lot) easier because you do know where certain items are.

http://www.usashooting.org/membership/officials

Many times you'll see some of the officials reading the book on the line ... again, seeing something and then "practicing" going to that part of the book and finding the appropriate rule quickly.

Stick the PDF version on your phone, tablet & laptop/desktop .... think of a question while you're working? ---- look it up at lunch.
(Hint: You can cheat then and use the PDF search....)

Just remember ... don't memorize ... it's all going to change in Feb!

ruig wrote:... or you have local match and jury (actually other shooters) are not familiar with all 300 pages. And someone has a problem... crossfire... malfunction etc.
It takes time to find what to do. It is not normal.

I noticed at World Cup: 30-50% air pistol shooters don't remove safety flags during dry firing after they were called to the line. I asked one why... shooter is not sure if it is allowed. Allowed. I needed 15 minutes to find it in rule book.

ruig,

There are two distintint problems here:
1- Match officials who are not familiar with the rules
2- Shooters who don't care enough to read the rules.

The first problem is simple. Those oficials shoundn't be supervising a match. At club level it can be problematic to find replacements, but from there on the problem ceases to existe (or it should).

The second problem is beacuse (some) shooters and coaches don't seam to understand the importance of knowing what you can do it something goes off plan. This has always baffled me!

I have always found it quite stange how someone would drop a towsand € or more (rifle) for equipment and then doesn't even bother in getting to know how the game is played...

Some expect the referee to explain to them what they should/can do, but to me that's just silly at best!
I've never seen a football (soccer for you americans) referee explain the rules to any player on the field... So why do some shooters expect that!?

As I said. My professional career is writing technical documents.

Who the hell cares about the structure of the ISSF if you're on their website looking for different disciplines or looking for the rules specific to an event?

But that's the information that is front and center when you go looking on the website and the first thing in the "General Rules".

And if you go to the website and look at the results of an event, where do you go for a primer in the event and how it is run?

If you have to flip back and forth through the rules to find what you need, the rules are poorly written and organised.

If resistance to splitting the "General Rules" into separate publications and reducing the spread of specific event rules among the many sections is insurmountable, then separate reference documents based on the rules need to be made.

Well written and organised rules result in any idiot being able to run event and needing to carry only a few pages of rules and procedure.

An official at a 50m event shouldn't have to decipher rules between 25m and 50m diciplines.

And, Looking at the rules I've found that even their heading and paragraph numbering isn't applied consistently. Nasty and embarrassingly amateur mistakes for a document that has obviously been through many revisions.

rmca wrote:There are two distintint problems here:
1- Match officials who are not familiar with the rules
2- Shooters who don't care enough to read the rules.

The local & junior matches (at all levels ... novice, intermediate & national level) are important to teach both officials and shooters. You don't just step in and be perfect. Even at National/World level they aren't .... they can't ... too much changes.

Both sides have to be a bit understanding that neither is perfect.

Now, in terms of the shooters knowing, their coaches should be teaching them as they progress ... specifically thinking juniors here.
In this generation of going on and playing games and stuff on their phones which are self explanatory and intuitive, I think you can give them a bit of a pass in thinking that this is too ... and I'll be the first to agree that IT IS NOT.

I'm still a newbie in this game I guess (13 years now) and I still find officials at matches (especially NRA) using 2007 rulebooks. I try not to be too exasperated in mentioning that some of the rules have changed since then.
Am I perfect? Hardly! That's why it's important to have a rulebook on the line with me. I certainly don't expect a shooter to keep up with every new rule either ... ESPECIALLY our older more experienced ones. You are saying "they (of all competitors) should know", right? WRONG!
The rules, especially ISSF, are changing sometimes on a monthly basis when you take into account the interpretations ... and those are not published in a timely fashion.

Everyone, both officials and shooters, need to be willing to (in a kind fashion) educate all ... this is, and never will be a static rulebook.
If you can't handle that --- just show up, shut up, shoot & scram.

SlartyBartFast wrote:Well written and organised rules result in any idiot being able to run event and needing to carry only a few pages of rules and procedure.

I think that the documents you are looking for are the Training Manual for Rifle Range Officials and Judges and the Training Manual for Pistol Range Officials and Judges.

David Levene wrote:I think that the documents you are looking for are the Training Manual for Rifle Range Officials and Judges and the Training Manual for Pistol Range Officials and Judges.

Thank you for the links. Where exactly are the links on the website to those documents?

SlartyBartFast wrote:

David Levene wrote:I think that the documents you are looking for are the Training Manual for Rifle Range Officials and Judges and the Training Manual for Pistol Range Officials and Judges.

Thank you for the links. Where exactly are the links on the website to those documents?

Under Amendments and Interpretations in the "Rules" section.

David Levene wrote:Under Amendments and Interpretations in the "Rules" section.

UGH. You need a certification in rules reading and the ISSF website layout to even begin to understand the ISSF event rules.

I wonder how well organised the original files are and how prone they are to reference errors.

Was just cleaning up the reloading room a few days ago and came across several old ISSF rule books. They definitely have evolved. Whether for the better or worse is debatable.

I'm with jhmartin on coaching juniors. It is important to teach the juniors the rules for their event if for no other reason than to make the youth aware of what to do should they crossfire or put a shot in the dirt or miss the target completely, or have an equipment malfunction. You don't need to have them memorize the entire rule book, but they certainly should be taught the basics. Just for instance, what do you do if you double load pellets? Pretty important to know what to do.

And the magic rule is at the first of every section of the ISSF rule book. 7.1.2, 8.1.2, 9.1.2 etc state that "All athletes, team leaders and officials must be familiar with the ISSF Rules and must ensure that these Rules are enforced. It is the responsibility of each athlete to comply with the Rules."

I know this doesn't address the issue the OP presented. I have also been involved in umpiring college baseball. The rule book for baseball is also not that easy to work through. You would be surprised how many college baseball coaches are not familiar with the rules. You want to read a real screwed up rule book, read the United States Internal Revenue rules.

SBF two things..

The ISSF is run in German and everything is probably translated.

The men running the ISSF are about 100 and haven't shot in about 40 years.

gwsb wrote:SBF two things..

The ISSF is run in German and everything is probably translated.

The men running the ISSF are about 100 and haven't shot in about 40 years.

Translation issues don't result poorly designed websites.

And without the old guys who don't play a sport anymore, most sports would lack organising committees.