TargetTalk

Hi, I am new to this forum, lots of good stuff hear. I am a relatively new 22 rifle shooter, due to back problems I have had to give up other sports. Now I am getting addicted to both rifle and pistol shooting.

I leave in Denmark, and we shoot 15m in the indoor winter season and 50m in the outdoor summer season. I shoot only prone position (standing with albue rest at 15 m), and this is my second 50m season where I have shot a 197 in training and 194 in competition.

I have problems with the rear sight alignment in the prone position, i center the outer ring to the top half of the rear sight on my first breath, center inner sight on second breath and then try to focus on trigger squeeze on the 3rd while focusing on the inner sight and target. Often though I sense that the outer alignment becomes misaligned or a shadow/ distortion appear at 8 oclock. I am unsure weither to correct and start again or just carry on as the inner sight is concentric. I think it is something to do with my cheek rest an weld, either I am relaxing pressure or I am sliding downwards. Sometimes I choose to ignore it and keep focusing until the shot goes, and I still get a 10, othertimes I let it ditract correct take the shot and get an 8. I feel that my cheek rest is adjusted correctly as initially everything seems fine.

Any ideas or recommendations would be apreciated

Shadow / distortion showing up at 8 o'clock can mean that there's something blocking the field of view at 2 o'clock, or 180 degrees from where the shadow is visible. May be the rim of your shooting glasses, or your eyebrow.

Dunk,

Do your 8s fall in a particular place or direction, i.e. always at 3 o'clock? Yes your head might not be perfectly placed, even if you have adjusted the cheekpiece. A common fault is sweaty cheeks slipping. Covering the cheekpiece in chamois leather, the stuff you wash cars with, or neoprene will reduce slipping. It's also known that some cheekpieces don't quite fit; making the edge more square with putty, or more round with a file can help you place your head more accurately.

Other possible issues can be leaning forwards too much. It's easier to see when the head is upright. If your rifle has a very slim fore-end, do you have raiser blocks under the sights? Most shooters with an aluminium stock use these for comfort. It's also possible that you are stretching to aim because the sights are too far away (or maybe too near), so your head is slipping into a more natural place as you relax to aim. Does your rifle allow the buttplate to be moved sideways so the sights are dead in front of your eye.

Also do you have a bubble or level bars in the foresight? It doesn't matter whether the rifle is upright or canted, but changing the angle will throw shots.

Another point is not to aim for too long. Waiting and staring at a nice concentric sight picture won't make the shot better. In fact it will often be bad because your vision deteriorates, and you don't see the rifle has moved, not until it recoils. The window to fire is between two and six seconds of breathing out. Simply fire as soon as the sight picture is good. You will need to practise dry firing to release the trigger on time without jerking the rifle.

Finally you say you focus on the target. This is not recommended, I realise you may mean something different. Your eye should focus on the foresight. The target will be slightly out of focus, but clear enough that you can see it is centred. This is often easier with a larger foresight element than a small element, say 3.6mm+ for a standard Anschutz/ Walther barrel and no extension tube. If you meant concentrating on a concentric foresight and target, that's OK.

Tim S wrote:Dunk,

Do your 8s fall in a particular place or direction, i.e. always at 3 o'clock? Yes your head might not be perfectly placed, even if you have adjusted the cheekpiece. A common fault is sweaty cheeks slipping. Covering the cheekpiece in chamois leather, the stuff you wash cars with, or neoprene will reduce slipping. It's also known that some cheekpieces don't quite fit; making the edge more square with putty, or more round with a file can help you place your head more accurately.

Other possible issues can be leaning forwards too much. It's easier to see when the head is upright. If your rifle has a very slim fore-end, do you have raiser blocks under the sights? Most shooters with an aluminium stock use these for comfort. It's also possible that you are stretching to aim because the sights are too far away (or maybe too near), so your head is slipping into a more natural place as you relax to aim. Does your rifle allow the buttplate to be moved sideways so the sights are dead in front of your eye.

Also do you have a bubble or level bars in the foresight? It doesn't matter whether the rifle is upright or canted, but changing the angle will throw shots.

Another point is not to aim for too long. Waiting and staring at a nice concentric sight picture won't make the shot better. In fact it will often be bad because your vision deteriorates, and you don't see the rifle has moved, not until it recoils. The window to fire is between two and six seconds of breathing out. Simply fire as soon as the sight picture is good. You will need to practise dry firing to release the trigger on time without jerking the rifle.

Finally you say you focus on the target. This is not recommended, I realise you may mean something different. Your eye should focus on the foresight. The target will be slightly out of focus, but clear enough that you can see it is centred. This is often easier with a larger foresight element than a small element, say 3.6mm+ for a standard Anschutz/ Walther barrel and no extension tube. If you meant concentrating on a concentric foresight and target, that's OK.

Wow lots of things to check here thanks, I am shooting a standard Anshutz 1907 with wooden stock. Funnily enough the Danish union teach you to focus on the target and not the forsight, saying it is the opposite to pistol shooting, a few months ago I read in a english coaching book to focus on the foresight with the target slightlig blurred, and now you and others here on this forum say the opposite, where of course I bow to you experience. I will start checking these parameters tomorrow at training, once again thanks.

I would not recommend ignoring the target completely, but your focus should be on the foresight. Even with the effect of the tiny rearsight aperture it's not possible to have both the foresight and target in sharp focus at the same time. As the target is static, but the rifle will move slightly, it makes sense to focus on the foresight. So long as the target is clear enough to centre, it doesn't matter if it's a little blurred. Some very good shooters may rapidly switch their focus between the foresight and target, but none focus solely on the target. That's for shotgunners where the target is moving.

Well after training tuesday and some analysis, I have concluded that I was too close to the diopter. Also my cheek was to near the front of the rest. When I moved my had back I seemed to get a more consistent sight alignment. I did not have much time to change my fokus to the front sight, as I was taking one thing at a time. I will work more on that next week.

Yes, if you are too close to the aperture it's possible to "lose" the foresight because the rearsight is too big. It's often recommended that the gap around the foresight tunnel is equal to the width of the tunnel. This will vary a little from shooter to shooter.

It sounds like you were straining your neck to get really close to the aperture, and your head was overhanging the cheekpiece at the front. I would agree this is not ideal, but many new shooters do it. Your head should rest easily on top of the cheekpiece, wherever it is comfortable and your neck is relaxed. Normally, if you want the rearsight aperture nearer or further from your eye (so the gap around the foresight is larger or smaller), you move the rearsight, so your head stays at its comfortable spot. This is because stretching out your neck or hunching back is painful, and your head won't sit consistently in the same spot.

As for the cheekpiece, some very successful shooters can get by with only the back half of their cheek on the cheekpiece, but others can't. Personally I think the cheek should be near the front of the cheekpiece; if it sits at the back of the cheekpiece, the stock is probably too long (unless you have a very short neck).

I played rugby for many years where I played lock in the scrum so I am very stiff necked, which may be some of the reason. Thanks for all your lengthy descriptions and analysis Tim. Although my club is socially very good, there has been little coaching knowledge as it is only the kids shooting rifle and pensionists who shoot from a standing position with elbow rest. I became club champion in my first season, and believe me I am not that good, but I am keen on training to get better.

DunktheHoops wrote:

Tim S wrote:Dunk,
Wow lots of things to check here thanks, I am shooting a standard Anshutz 1907 with wooden stock. Funnily enough the Danish union teach you to focus on the target and not the forsight, saying it is the opposite to pistol shooting, a few months ago I read in a english coaching book to focus on the foresight with the target slightlig blurred, and now you and others here on this forum say the opposite, where of course I bow to you experience. I will start checking these parameters tomorrow at training, once again thanks.

In pistol, focus should be on the front sight, with attention on alignment of front and rear sights. With rifle, focus should also be on the front sight, but attention is on alignment of front sight and target, so in that sense they are opposite. However, in both cases, focus should be on the front sight.

DunktheHoops wrote:Often though I sense that the outer alignment becomes misaligned or a shadow/ distortion appear at 8 oclock.

One of my kids was telling me that her rear sight had something in it, partially blocking her view in the bottom of the rear sight. I checked and saw nothing. Then, I got into the rifle (prone) and let my cheek relax and I could see the 'blockage'. It went away when I opened my eyes wider.

Basically, either the eyelid or cheek was getting into the view of the rear sight.

Try just opening your eyes a bit wider.

Helps if I read the entire thread before posting... looks like you foudn the problem...

Well after training tuesday and some analysis, I have concluded that I was too close to the diopter. Also my cheek was to near the front of the rest. When I moved my had back I seemed to get a more consistent sight alignment. I did not have much time to change my fokus to the front sight, as I was taking one thing at a time. I will work more on that next week.

I have thought of someting else at the start of the 50 m season, I read some else that the rear stock should be extended so if hold the rifle vertically supported on you over arm your trigger finger joint is aligned with the trigger. This meant I moved the rear stock backwards about 2 cm. The article though did not say that you should move the rear sight backwards equivantly, surely though you need to do this, as in theory the sight will be further away if you extend the stock. I felt that the my shooting had improved, and I shot 2 x 194 in competition during the weekend, which although not brilliant was a competition pb for me. Training yesterday was ok, a few bad shots but I had some good runs of 10's. Today though it was awfull, I just could not get comfortable no matter how many times I reset. I think I will start getiing someone to take photos so I can see what I am doing differently.

Drunk,

yes if you have made the butt longer, you would normally move the rearsight back.

Setting the stock length (length of pull to English speakers) according to the forearm is common, however I don't think it's accurate. It may work for shotguns, but for a prone rifle the stock is invariably far far too long. For example I normally shoot with the butt extended about 2in/5cm for a butt-grip distance of 11.5in/29cm, but if I use this method the butt goes out to 4in/10cm (grip to butt 13.5in/34cm). I can shoot with the butt this long, but the breech is so far away I struggle to load. I'm 6ft 1in (185cm), and have proportionally long arms (the last time I played rugby, many many years ago, I was a Flanker)

It's not desirable to set the butt longer than necessary to straighten the wrist of your trigger arm. When the butt is too long the breech is much further away so it's hard to load, and usually the rifle is muzzle heavy because more barrel is in front of the hand. A good rule of thumb is that the front of the grip is roughly halfway between the butt and handstop +/- 1in/2.5cm.

Dunkthehoop,

Here is a rule of thumb I was taught about front sights.

"You have control over the rear sight. You have no control over the target, as it is mounted and cannot move. So focus on the front sight." My coach taught me that when shots start to spread, there is usually only one problem - not focusing on the front sight. Sure you see the front sight, but you must remain focused on it.