TargetTalk

A quick poll if we, as smallbore shooters, feel it is time to form our own governing body. This is NOT intended for ISU disciplines.

I am not including CMP as an option on purpose. If smallbore shooters have had enough, the start should be fresh.

Several years ago The World Shooting Assn was being talked about to include non-Olympic style shooting. I was involved for awhile and we had a congress in Budapest one year, but nothing really came of it. Don in Oregon

Was it two years ago? ... How time flies ....

Several competition shooters ran for board seats for the NRA, which would have given them the ability to hire/fire and revamp the competitions office.
They could not get enough votes to accomplish their purpose.

It's not going to do much good if enough folks cannot be rounded up to even do the small task to mark ballots and get them to the post office.
Most folk want to sit back and have everything done for them.

Many National Federations (ISSF) are in the same boat. need enough folks on NGBs to be able to replace those "representatives" who are there now and sending ISSF down the rosy path to network TV acceptable shooting.

jhmartin wrote:Was it two years ago? ... How time flies ....

Several competition shooters ran for board seats for the NRA, which would have given them the ability to hire/fire and revamp the competitions office.
They could not get enough votes to accomplish their purpose.

It's not going to do much good if enough folks cannot be rounded up to even do the small task to mark ballots and get them to the post office.
Most folk want to sit back and have everything done for them.

Many National Federations (ISSF) are in the same boat. need enough folks on NGBs to be able to replace those "representatives" who are there now and sending ISSF down the rosy path to network TV acceptable shooting.

I don't think the issue is competitive shooters getting their ballot and voting. The issue is the number of life members that are competitive shooters vs the rest of the NRA general population.

There was a pretty good slate of them ... I cannot remember how many, but a good number

Kenny,

Competitive shooters are a miniscule percentage of the NRA membership.

There are approximately 30,000 classification cards in all disciplines. Realistically we know that most of us hold at least two, but lets ignore that. There are 5,000,000 NRA members which means competitive shooters, at best, represent 0.006 percent of the membership.

When I first started in the game the NRA was looking to hit 1,000,000 members and there were more than 30,000 classification cards.

The NRA is a business and things, like the content of The American Rifleman, reflect a sound business model. I don't like it but that is the way it is today.

"Over 500 competitors attended the 2016 USPSA Area 6 Championship, held this past April at the South River Gun Club in Covington, GA." SSUSA Insider of May 11, 2016

If the 2016 National Smallbore Championships fill completely there will be 600 entries, not contestants, in three disciplines, which would be very nice.

As of today there are a total of 146 entries, 78 prone and 68 position. I am sure this number will increase but I suspect it will fall short of 600.

The traditional shooting sports, smallbore prone and position, high power, and three gun pistol, seem to be on the decline while Cowboy Action, Three Gun, and other action shooting sports are growing.

We can't seem to get competitors elected to the NRA BOD so we have no input at the highest levels. I am at a loss as to how to grow my sport other than to continue to train juniors and try to attract adults.

Times have changed and we are on the outside looking in.

Best,

Hap

Hap Rocketto wrote: There are approximately 30,000 classification cards in all disciplines. Realistically we know that most of us hold at least two, but lets ignore that. There are 5,000,000 NRA members which means competitive shooters, at best, represent 0.006 percent of the membership.

You neglected to multiply by 100.

30,000 / 5,000,000 = 0.006

0.006 x 100 = 0.6%

Nevertheless, your point stands that it's a small niche in the NRA's overall membership at well under 1%.

That's AT MOST .6%.
Most juniors I know (rifle) hold 3 or more.

The rest probably have memberships to support our gun rights ... and that's not a bad thing.

The poll is missing an option.

Get the CMP or USA Shooting to pick up smallbore conventional and metric disciplines.

Creation of a new body to set up rules, coordinate local, regional and national matches is a daunting task. Why not just get an organization that has already showed the ability and willingness to promote shooting sports at all these levels to take over.

bdutton wrote:The poll is missing an option.

Get the CMP or USA Shooting to pick up smallbore conventional and metric disciplines.

Creation of a new body to set up rules, coordinate local, regional and national matches is a daunting task. Why not just get an organization that has already showed the ability and willingness to promote shooting sports at all these levels to take over.

There is no missing option in the poll.

If you read my first post, the CMP and USA Shooting are omitted for a reason. The first question is are we fed up enough with the NRA to leave. If so, then investigate further options.

USA Shooting is not going to want to have to be engaged with conventional competition. New rule book, etc. Not their gig. As for CMP, it may be an option, but there are many items that would need to be addressed there also.

1813benny wrote:

bdutton wrote:The poll is missing an option.

Get the CMP or USA Shooting to pick up smallbore conventional and metric disciplines.

Creation of a new body to set up rules, coordinate local, regional and national matches is a daunting task. Why not just get an organization that has already showed the ability and willingness to promote shooting sports at all these levels to take over.

There is no missing option in the poll.

If you read my first post, the CMP and USA Shooting are omitted for a reason. The first question is are we fed up enough with the NRA to leave. If so, then investigate further options.

USA Shooting is not going to want to have to be engaged with conventional competition. New rule book, etc. Not their gig. As for CMP, it may be an option, but there are many items that would need to be addressed there also.

The infrastructure exists with both to expand into conventional. While USA shooting's Charter as an Olympic sporting event sanctioning body may prohibit them, the CMP has no limitation. Maybe NSSF could pic it up?

Either way, I believe starting a brand new governing body is too large of and undertaking which is why I didn't vote for any option.

At this point I could care less on the path forward.....- as long as smallbore no longer under the NRA.

There is absolutley NOTHING preventing a club/individual who is affiliated with USAS or CMP from hosting a sanctioned match. Now CMP does not offer the NRA smallbore prone, but USAS has 3-P and prone.

Host a PTO.

Start your movement ..... if it ever gets big enough, break away on your own......

I recommend caution with regards to splitting. When you are in a niche sport, particularly one that is not growing if not in fact dying, fracturing will only make it worse. Take a look at a sport like Powerlifting that had at most 10,000 registered competitors. During the 80s and 90s it split into so many federations you could not keep track of them all. The sport if far worse off because of it.

I'd recommend working with the NRA, or like the previous poster said, it would be great to see more people hosting USAS shooting PTO events.

mbradley wrote: I'd recommend working with the NRA.........

You don't "work" with the NRA. They tell the shooters what they will be doing - and you will like it. 80+% of shooters were not in favor of the change from the 6400 format to the 4800 format in conventional prone - it only took over a decade to change it back and that was only because the NRA used it in an attempt to quell the amount of shooter dissatisfaction with their governing body.

As my kids would say, "epic fail".

Excuse my ignorance of the smallbore specifics.
NRA impact on pistol shooting has it's share of downsides, too.
2700 pistol matches…. the 45 hasn't been the US service pistol for 30 years. Maybe time to update? Just call the third 900 match of the 2700 aggregate "service pistol". Use what you want, so long as it's a legit service pistol. i.e. maybe use the CMP approved list!

A good point was made about the negative impact of fracturing a specialized sport.
IHMSA was doing a great job with silhouette pistol. Then, NRA has to step in and start their own parallel version. They were different enough to blunt further growth of the sport.

Now NRA is pushing Bianchi Cup pistol. Two handed "action event" = mass appeal = $$$! (More of a "show" than a "match", IMHO!)

Tough call!!

My apologies for moving a bit off-topic.

Best Regards,
Jim

I would agree with the person above about being cautious about splitting with the NRA. I can understand the frustrations at times, but starting a new group would be a huge task and you need to ask yourself the following question. Who would want to take the time and energy to create a new organization? The main problem with any organization today is there aren't enough people involved to voice their concerns or better yet willing do something. If the majority want something done then the majority must get involved otherwise the minority will rule the roost. The NRA is not a huge organization with a great number of people. The economy has affected their resources just like anybody else and as a result they have had to cut back their resources just to full fill their basic mission. They are a grass roots organization that depends on mostly volunteers to accomplish their missions. They are currently being outspent by organizations like Bloomberg's. These groups have had just currently limited success, but overtime those small success will add up and without more participation and support to groups like the NRA. The future will grow dimmer for the shooting sports. The best answer would be to get greater participation from the gun owners in this country. Their supposedly 80 million gun owners in this country, but only five million are NRA members. If just half that number joined and got involved with the NRA then much of the resource problems would be solved. This is one of the basic principals on how the funding fathers wanted our government to work and the NRA has tried to govern in a similar matter. I would guarantee you that even if you started a new organization it would only be a matter of time before certain factions would dislike what the new organization would be doing.

The small amount of people that vote is a grand example of why the country is in a mess. The voting population in addition is getting to be the least informed with every generation and what's worse they are less and less people are getting involved with the process expecting the government to do everything for them. That is why small minorities are now make rules for the majority because they are willing to get involved. Any power structure without the participation of the people will eventually seek it is own way to rule.

randy1952 wrote:....The main problem with any organization today is there aren't enough people involved to voice their concerns or better yet willing do something. If the majority want something done then the majority must get involved otherwise the minority will rule the roost. .

The issue at hand, at least for smallbore prone and 3-position with the NRA and so called "Smallbore Committee" is their lack of transparency, communication and any sense of listening to the shooters.

Case in point - moving the national matches to Bristol.....taking over 10 years to change the format of conventional prone back to the 6400 vs the 4800.

Attendance has plummeted since the move to Bristol - the shooters just don't want it there. There is no concurrent junior camp at the same location. There are no suppliers. I think it's pretty obvious that the move was strictly for financial reasons, but the shooters were not even approached with options. Heck, we opened the wallets for the cover at Camp Perry. Similar situation.

The issue is that enough shooters are ticked off - but sticking with the NRA is easier rather than getting a true governing body that actually cares about the shooters' and further promoting the sport rather than just holding us up in the air as poster children every 4 years.

To top it all off, the NRA and the so called smallbore committee got caught spinning a bunch of tall tales and they have no credibility with any shooter that has a pulse. They forgot that shooters are not dumb.

1813benny wrote:

randy1952 wrote:....The main problem with any organization today is there aren't enough people involved to voice their concerns or better yet willing do something. If the majority want something done then the majority must get involved otherwise the minority will rule the roost. .

The issue at hand, at least for smallbore prone and 3-position with the NRA and so called "Smallbore Committee" is their lack of transparency, communication and any sense of listening to the shooters.

Case in point - moving the national matches to Bristol.....taking over 10 years to change the format of conventional prone back to the 6400 vs the 4800.

Attendance has plummeted since the move to Bristol - the shooters just don't want it there. There is no concurrent junior camp at the same location. There are no suppliers. I think it's pretty obvious that the move was strictly for financial reasons, but the shooters were not even approached with options. Heck, we opened the wallets for the cover at Camp Perry. Similar situation.

The issue is that enough shooters are ticked off - but sticking with the NRA is easier rather than getting a true governing body that actually cares about the shooters' and further promoting the sport rather than just holding us up in the air as poster children every 4 years.

To top it all off, the NRA and the so called smallbore committee got caught spinning a bunch of tall tales and they have no credibility with any shooter that has a pulse. They forgot that shooters are not dumb.

I can understand your frustrations, but if not people voice their opinion they eventually have to listen. I know it takes more work and time to make it happen, but sometimes those sacrifices have to be made for the greater good.

randy1952 wrote:I can understand your frustrations, but if not people voice their opinion they eventually have to listen. I know it takes more work and time to make it happen, but sometimes those sacrifices have to be made for the greater good.

Randy ... liken this to the USA Shooting situation.
We (the members) were able to get changes to the bylaws ONLY by getting the USOC involved. The board was not listening to the members, and really did not care. And we're only now in the process of operating under the new bylaws. Who knows what will come?

Very similar to the NRA competition committee(s).
There is no "USOC" type entity to get involved here ... only the members, and there are not enough that care about the board members who have 1) interest or 2)experience in competitions ... as evidenced by the last BOD elections. I just don't think the complaints of the competition folks fall on interested ears ... the change will have to come from getting BOD members who care involved ... possible? ... only if the members vote for those running for the board that care about making changes to the comp committee(s).