TargetTalk

I have been researching online for the past two weeks to no avail, I am looking to buy some new ammo for practice and competition.
I have come up with the choices of practice to be eley target, eley club, sk standar plus, sk rifle match. as for the competition eley edge, eley match, lapua center-x, sk rifle match. I am shooting a Walther Anatomic KK300, so far the few comparisons I have found for these ammo are from sporter rifles and not from match rifles so the data there is iffy. I plan on buying it today since I am low on ammo and will be competing on the national level pretty soon starting with Black Hawk in Atlanta and then Camp Perry. So for everyone here what are their opinions and experiences with these ammo, which one do you recommend for me to use?

Vic - your question is the same question plaguing every shooter, preparing to enter any competition: What ammo should I use!?

The answer is, the one you've tested, and is most suited to your rifle.

For practice, you use the next best grade that you can regularly afford to purchase.

You will get many opinions on the varying brands, speeds, etc. Use the one you've tested - it really is rifle dependent.

ETA: I generally base my testing on a general speed requirement. I try to hit the 1054 FPS mark with the match ammo (some of the manufacturers will publish the tested speeds of that lot on the box/case).

I'm sorry to tell you this, but chosing ammo isn't quite so easy.

All the brands listed above are from respected manufacturers; SK is simply Lapua's budget label. All could shoot well, but you can't say that brand X will give .5in groups, and brand Y .6in, and brand Z .25in. 22 barrels are often fussy, not just over brand but even the production lot. While generally the tighter quality control that more expensive grades receive translates to tighter groups, and greater consistency between production lots, the only way to find if a brand shoots well in your barrel is by shooting. Some brands and batches just won't shoot well. The difference between a batch that suits your barrel and a batch that doesn't can be quite noticeable. I batch tested Edge (Eley's Mid grade) with Eley a few years ago; the biggest 10 shot group at 50m was 24mm (across the furthest edges), and the smallest was 13.xmm. This was from nearly consecutive lots with an identical average MV. At 50m the 24mm group would wreck your day.

Find a dealer willing to supply you with a range of test lots, and shoot these. Find what gives acceptable results from your gun, and buy a sufficient quantity of your chosen lots.

As they say, a picture (or two) are worth a thousand words.

VicRC87 wrote: So for everyone here what are their opinions and experiences with these ammo, which one do you recommend for me to use?

Every barrel is unique, as is every batch of ammunition. If you're serious, contact the Eley Customer Range in Texas to have your rifle matched to a specific batch of ammunition.

Having been to the range, I can assure you there is NO correlation between how any particular batch of ammunition performs in one particular barrel and how it will do in another barrel.

You have received a couple of perfect answers. On top of this testing the next step is torque settings on action screws. Once you've found some ammo that shoot well, do some controlled testing of that ammo with different torque settings. Most rifles should have a sweet spot between 3.5 - 5nm . While a bit of a pain to fluff around doing it is well worth the effort in the long run if you are able to buy a decent amount of ammo from one lot.

I'd suggest you find the best ammo you can, low ES and SD, then tune the rifle to that ammo. Isn't looking for ammo that shoots well in an untuned rifle then tuning it a sub-optimal approach? It might make sense for selecting a brand (Eley, Lapua, or RWS) that matches your chamber, but beyond that... Just as selecting ammo that shoots well out of a rest rather than the stock you will be using would seem to be sub-optimal. If adjusting the receiver bolt torque can make a difference, then why isn't the stock a critical part of the system?

Bottom line, there are too many unknowns which result in conventional theories that are contrary to common sense. We badly need a scientific method to quantitatively establish the physical laws. Until then, find the best ammo you can. The really good stuff doesn't need a lot of tuning and will likely shoot well in your rifle.

Mark

Mark,

very simply because most folks don't have the time to chronograph and then tune. Batch testing for most will give acceptable accuracy.

Chronographed three lots of Tenex today - 50 rounds at 100 yards in prone position with my wrist supported. One of the three lots showed good performance numbers and the other two were average. But the good one's published velocity was way low. The other two were on their published numbers. The 54.30, however, didn't want anything to do with the Tenex. Perhaps the 16 1/2 twist was the cause. Some very good RWS R50 grouped OK, but a run of the mill lot of CenterX shot the tightest groups (used these two as controls and they were shot last when the wind had increased).

Mark

patriot wrote:We badly need a scientific method to quantitatively establish the physical laws.

I'd love this, but I don't think it's achievable.

For one thing, you can't treat individual shots (or even strings of shots) as independent trials in the statistical sense. Fouling, barrel temperature and (over longer strings) barrel wear are all confounding factors that are hard to control for. Any model that you attempt to build will require some very gnarly statistics and much larger numbers of shots than you really want to take.

If – like most of us – you're not a full time, funded shooter then you're much better off spending the bulk of your available time training rather than testing. Take a day or two a year to test with ELEY/Lapua/RWS (whoever's near) and get ammo that's good enough. Then spend the rest of your time thinking about you and not the equipment.

I've tested guns that like Eley Tenex (red) the best, I've had guns that like SK STD+ the best.
All were 54 actions ... just gotta test one way or another.

Of course realize what they like the best is usually in the 1 to 1.5mm difference in the groups at 50m.

Currently my club shoots Lapua ammo ... For us it is much easier to test at the Mesa, AZ facility (400 miles ... a quick trip).
I leave today to have three days of testing on 9 guns.

A little update, I shoot a KK300 Anatomic, so far have shoot low to mid and ammo (Federal Match 711B, RWS Target Orange box, SK Standard Plus, SK Rifle Match) all these ammo are almost undistinguishable at 50 yards, the might group in different parts of the target but they all group at 30-65 mm. Two weeks ago I shot a club competition with SK Target Rifle in very bad conditions, very windy especially at 100 yards but managed to get a 1546.026/1600 in this condition with my second time shooting this rifle at 100 yards and the first time I shot a competition with it since I just got the rifle three months and a half ago and been in the sport since last November. During the competition I could call my errors right as I made the shot, so my thinking was getting a more suited ammo that performs great in my rifle until I correct my error to justify traveling halfway the country (I live in Florida, and Eley test rang is in Texas and Lapua in Arizona). Any suggestions as what can I do or what should I ty to take the ammo factor out of the equation as I improve everything ( I have a scatt to practice at home also since getting to the range during the week is almost impossible and only get to go on Saturdays)

VicRC87 wrote:All these ammo are almost undistinguishable at 50 yards, the might group in different parts of the target but they all group at 30-65 mm.

I take it this shooting Prone? 30mm - 65mm groups @ 50m are not good. You may not expect to find the absolute best performer from those grades, but not 7-ring groups. Are the groups a smaller core with wide-flung fliers, or an even spread?

First I'd make sure the rifle is tight. By this I mean that the bolts holding the receiver into the stock are not loose (see the manual for Walther's recommendation on tightness), and nor are the sights, any riser blocks, handstop, cheekpiece and buttplate, and even the trigger. Then I would clean the bore carefully using a bronze brush and a powder/lead solvent and a quality cleaning rod, and patches to remove any residue.

Once you're sure the rifle is clean and set up properly, you're ready for the range. I'd rest your arm on a sandbag, or something similar to try to minimise shooter error. You could use a 'scope to aim if you have one. Shoot groups, and don't pay too much attention to where the group is. Are you still getting such big groups? Even mid range ammo should group well within the 9-ring.

There is always the possibility that the grouping is due to shooter error. Do you know an experienced shooter who can look you over while shooting? Your position, aiming technique, triggering may not be right. I have also seen new shooters set up fancy super-adjustable stocks in a way that it's impossible for them to get a relaxed a consistent position. What is your hold like on the Scatt?

VicRC87 wrote:A little update, I shoot a KK300 Anatomic, so far have shoot low to mid and ammo (Federal Match 711B, RWS Target Orange box, SK Standard Plus, SK Rifle Match) all these ammo are almost undistinguishable at 50 yards, the might group in different parts of the target but they all group at 30-65 mm. Two weeks ago I shot a club competition with SK Target Rifle in very bad conditions, very windy especially at 100 yards but managed to get a 1546.026/1600 in this condition with my second time shooting this rifle at 100 yards and the first time I shot a competition with it since I just got the rifle three months and a half ago and been in the sport since last November. During the competition I could call my errors right as I made the shot, so my thinking was getting a more suited ammo that performs great in my rifle until I correct my error to justify traveling halfway the country (I live in Florida, and Eley test rang is in Texas and Lapua in Arizona). Any suggestions as what can I do or what should I ty to take the ammo factor out of the equation as I improve everything ( I have a scatt to practice at home also since getting to the range during the week is almost impossible and only get to go on Saturdays)

Check if you can ship your rifle to them.. The customers there are getting 40 shot groups under 15mm. I went to Birmingham and got 22mm groups with a pistol!

IRLConor wrote: Any model that you attempt to build will require some very gnarly statistics and much larger numbers of shots than you really want to take.

I've never liked statistical approaches to simulation models; but I have enjoyed watching PHD's and their LP's wasting endless cycles producing little of value.

IRLConor wrote: If – like most of us – you're not a full time, funded shooter then you're much better off spending the bulk of your available time training rather than testing. Take a day or two a year to test with ELEY/Lapua/RWS (whoever's near) and get ammo that's good enough. Then spend the rest of your time thinking about you and not the equipment.

I have ammo and rifles that shoot well enough. That is not what interests me.

Mark

I recently tested most of the ammunition types in a few targets rifles, and my shooting friend did the same. We both thought Center X followed by Norma Tac shot the best, in our 6 rifle outing. We have a few bricks of Center X, and we both bought the same lot of Tac for practice. Both Tac and Center X seem to have very few unexplained fliers. SK the most fliers.