2020 Olympic to drop FR60PR

[conradin]

There is an interview with Rajmond Debevec after his failed attempt to make this year's Olympics and his attention is now turned to 2020. He said that the ISSF is negotiating with Tokyo to have the quotas evenly distributed by sex, and since there are more events in men, they plan to drop FR60PR. Debevec said that because of this latest situation, his chance of making 2020 will be slim.

http://www.rtvslo.si/sport/preostali-sp ... eze/387138

Anyone can confirm what Debevec said from a different source?

I always wonder why can't we merge all events into mix..women are just as good if not better than men in a lot of events.

[Brian Girling]

[quote="
I always wonder why can't we merge all events into mix..women are just as good if not better than men in a lot of events.[/quote]

Some events were mixed, I am not sure when they were separated.

In 1976 Olympic Games 50m smallbore 3 position:-

Margaret Murdock shot P 398, K 388, S 376 = 1162 beating Lanny Basham under the previous rules.
Lanny Basham P 397, K 392, S 373 = 1162.

I heard (I was there for GB) that it was the USA team captain who protested and Basham won the gold and Murdock the silver.

IMHO that shows that that shooting is one of the sports in which men and women can compete on equal terms, it was probably a male committee that split them. ;-)

[dschaller]

I heard the same thing, along with the elimination of Free Pistol for the same reason. Unfortunately, I have not seen anything confirming these proposals.

[ShootWithStyle]

What you are hearing unfortunately is true. In my talks with ISSF officials here in the USA, they confirm discussion about eliminating these events. Other topics brought up were banning the shooting trousers...again. Also changing the finals format again since the start from zero final still has many detractors.

What I hear is that it's not really the ISSF but the International Olympic Committee issuing directives to all the Sporting Federations to make the events equal. The Federations can not add events as the Games are already too big with too many athletes. So they must eliminate events.

It's unfortunate as older shooters will definitely have a tougher time qualifying for the games. Perhaps that's some of the reasoning. The Olympic Games is a young persons endeavour.

I think the IOC would like to drop shooting altogether since it doesn't generate any great viewership. That's why we have more X-Games type events now (think BMX). Shooting is still a core spore at the moment, but that can change in the future.

But nothing is written in stone yet, and there may be some hope of making it a combined event possibly.

I will have to focus on 3P and Air Rifle now.

[Marc Orvin]

Please remember that all this talk of eliminating events is still in the "talk" stage, as has been pointed out above. Nothing has been eliminated yet. Nothing has been added yet. All the talk about rifle clothing changes is just talk also. Best way to keep up with what is happening with ISSF is to friend them on facebook. You'll get all the news you can stand.

[gwsb]

That would be hard to believe but nothing is too bizarre for the IOC and ISSF to do to screw up international shooting.

The women vs men thing came about because the Europeans didn't want women shooting in the Olympics so the events were coed until Margaret Murdock in 1976 equaled Lanny Bassham's score in 3p. She got the silver, not because some US coach decided it but because the UIT rules had tie breaking procedures. The shooter with the lower number of lower valued shots won. In this case, Margaret had shot an 8 in kneeling. Lanny had no 8s so he won. No conspiracy, he won according to the rules.

That match, added to the US drive to get women's events in the Olympics convinced the UIT to add women's events to the Olympic program. Olympic rules state that if there is no difference in the competition for women and men then the event must be coed. That is why the women shoot 60 shots 3p, 40 shots air, and shoot 3p and prone with a sport rifle; while men shoot 60 air and 120 3p with a free rifle.

As with every thing today in sport, it's all about the money. FIFA, ISSF, IOC, NCAA are all money hungry greedy old men who don't really care a whit about the sport or athletes. I think a great start could be made with a shake up at the ISSF where the two leaders are 81 and 76. Maybe get some people who shot sometime in the last 30 years.

[David Levene]

What I hear is that it's not really the ISSF but the International Olympic Committee issuing directives to all the Sporting Federations to make the events equal.

That is certainly true.

If anyone wants to know more then I suggest you read the IOC's "Olympic Agenda 2020" recommendations.

[conradin]

Make the events mix. It has already proven that women can shoot as good as men. That way we can save all events. If free pistol get canned that will be death of the sport as a legitimate sport. Air pistols and rifles are invented as a compromise for training in the first place. They may as well have all events for laser tags just like penthalon.

[David Levene]

Make the events mix.

As I understand it the IOC don't want mixed individual events, just mixed team events.

[conradin]

Make the events mix.

As I understand it the IOC don't want mixed individual events, just mixed team events.

Hypocrites.

[David Levene]

Make the events mix.

As I understand it the IOC don't want mixed individual events, just mixed team events.

Hypocrites.

Why is that hypocritical?

[IRLConor]

The Federations can not add events as the Games are already too big with too many athletes. So they must eliminate events.

From what I've heard before the limiting factor on numbers is beds in the village, not number of events. Since multi-event shooting is already very common within the rifle events we could probably add several events without increasing the headcount. The shooting venues aren't used to their full capacity and considering the cost of building and running them we should be trying to squeeze as much out of them as possible.

For 2016 there are 390 athlete places. 219 for men, 147 for women and 24 that can be allocated either way (the Tripartite Commission Invitation Places). They're broken down like this:



With about 10 minutes of work and some wild guesses about shotgun stuff that I know nothing about, I was able to make this:



See! Equal numbers, three more events and there are enough quotas (in rifle anyway, I don't know enough about P & SH) to make a decent-sized high quality firing line in each event. If I can do that during my lunch break at work, I'm sure the folks at the IOC and ISSF could come up with a more refined version that would have a similar result.

The real elephant in the room is the reduced number of shots in the women's events. If the ISSF wants to take gender equality seriously it needs to stop treating women as delicate flowers that can't shoot a full course of fire. It's pretty obvious from historical results (e.g. Murdock v Bassham) and current, non-international competitions that there is no real impediment to women shooting 60 or 120 shots in a rifle match. Not only are women physically capable but their quality of shooting is damn near identical too. If you adjust for the number of shots taken, the AR40 WR is higher than the AR60 WR, the 3P WRs differ by 2 points (or 0.2%) and the prone record differs by 0.7% and that's almost certainly because fewer women train as hard for prone because it's not an Olympic event.

[ShootWithStyle]

See! Equal numbers, three more events and there are enough quotas (in rifle anyway, I don't know enough about P & SH) to make a decent-sized high quality firing line in each event. If I can do that during my lunch break at work, I'm sure the folks at the IOC and ISSF could come up with a more refined version that would have a similar result.

I like it....but it makes too much sense for the ISSF or as I jokingly refer to it the "International Sexist Shooting Federation". lol

This is definitely something they should do. I hope someone smart does something like this. Not bad for an Irishman. ;-)

I agree that women are equally capable and can shoot with the men in their events. But even as a guy, I'd actually much rather shoot a 3x20 than a 3x40. It would save time and I could make my supply of ammunition last longer.

Perhaps they can just change the number of shots for certain events. All the old records then remain intact and we go forward setting new ones. Instead of 3x20 and 3x40, men and women now shoot a 3x30. We just split the difference. But prone should stay 60 shots.

Last bit of food for thought.....if IOC wants gender equality for all the sports......does that mean we will end up seeing Mens Synchronized Swimming???? Yikes!!!!

[David Levene]

See! Equal numbers, three more events and there are enough quotas (in rifle anyway, I don't know enough about P & SH) to make a decent-sized high quality firing line in each event. If I can do that during my lunch break at work, I'm sure the folks at the IOC and ISSF could come up with a more refined version that would have a similar result.

I like it....but it makes too much sense for the ISSF or as I jokingly refer to it the "International Sexist Shooting Federation". lol

I don't think you've quite understood the position. It's not the ISSF who are driving these changes it's the IOC. Accept them or leave the Games.

I would again suggest reading Olympic Agenda 2020, and then thinking about what lays behind it.

More events? Not a hope in Hades.

[ShootWithStyle]

Oh I understand where it's coming from David. I'm the one that originally posted that it's coming from the IOC and not the ISSF.

But I couldn't pass up an opportunity to use my ISSF joke. lol

[IRLConor]

Not bad for an Irishman. ;-)

I'm not sure I should take that from someone who faffs about playing dress-up all day long. :p

More events? Not a hope in Hades.

Sadly, I suspect you're right.

It's such a waste. For all the effort that goes into getting TV time for shooting sports they'll be throwing away 20% of the finals if they ditch prone, free pistol and double trap.

[ShootWithStyle]

ShootWithStyle wrote:
Not bad for an Irishman. ;-)


I'm not sure I should take that from someone who faffs about playing dress-up all day long. :p

lol. You wish you could play dress up like I do, Conor. Well, technically I'm playing dress up with real life human dolls. It's not for the faint of heart. :-)

[conradin]

As I understand it the IOC don't want mixed individual events, just mixed team events.

I don't see equestrian events divide by sex.

[conradin]

Drop SP, FR60PR, DT150; Split FP and RFP into M/W; give the extra left over slots to the shotgun and rifle folks in exchange.

[larry]

[quote="conradin"]There is an interview with Rajmond Debevec after his failed attempt to make this year's Olympics and his attention is now turned to 2020. He said that the ISSF is negotiating with Tokyo to have the quotas evenly distributed by sex, and since there are more events in men, they plan to drop FR60PR. Debevec said that because of this latest situation, his chance of making 2020 will be slim.

http://www.rtvslo.si/sport/preostali-sp ... eze/387138

Anyone can confirm what Debevec said from a different source?

I always wonder why can't we merge all events into mix..women are just as good if not better than men in a lot of events.[/quote]

Yes please ,anyone one got a different source ,I asked an European coach about this and apparently this is more than a Rumor but nothing writed