TargetTalk

Can you find the common thread?

https://www.youtube.com/embed/pELwCqz2J ... oplay=true

I've found it, and you won't like the answer. The common thread is that this guy can cherry pick data every bit as well as the next guy. I don't give a rat's patoot where the US stands in murder rate compared to Jamaica, Honduras or Mexico where criminal gangs run amok, Yemen, Burundi or Somalia or any number of other countries in or approaching civil war. It's not a point of pride to be better than Kyrgyzstan or Albania; it would be shameful if we weren't.

I am concerned that we do so much worse than all the countries most like ourselves - Britain, Canada, Germany, France, Switzerland, Japan and the entire rest of the developed world.

The most misleading facts of all are the ones trotted out to condemn Detroit, Chicago and other "Democrat-controlled" metropolitan areas. Last time I looked Chicago was still a strict gun control island in the loosely regulated state of Illinois, and it's little more than an inconvenience for a Brainerd Park gangbanger to drive an hour or two where he can easily buy a gun or break into a suburban home and steal one (or more).

But keep at it, Boyo. As long as you're online doing your "research," you're not out there getting into more serious mischief.

Last time I checked, I wouldn't say that those parts of Illinois outside of Chicago are "loosely regulated." When my father asked me for advice on a gun purchase I went with him to the local shop and we looked at some items. When I asked the clerk to remove one from the rack so that I could explain its operation to my father, the clerk asked me to provide my permit to buy. Not being a resident of that fine state, I didn't have one and was told I could not even touch it without said permit. That doesn't fit my definition of loosely regulated. I believe it's time for us to stop regulating inanimate objects and to start paying attention to bad behavior.

Dennis

"I believe it's time for us to stop regulating inanimate objects and to start paying attention to bad behavior."
Don't you think it's time to start thinking about prevention? My guess is I'm pretty lonely here thinking we might just have something to learn in that department from other countries.

If, by prevention, you mean enforcing existing law, identifying and treating those who suffer from mental illness, and severly punishing those who disobey the gun laws, then I would concur. However, it's been my experience that we will NEVER be able to completely prevent violent acts by the mentally ill or those who have a religious or political agenda. The best we can do in these cases is to quickly STOP the violence. This can most often be done by well trained individuals with CCWs who happen to be immediately available. Awaiting the authorities is simply a recipe for additional slaughter. The kind of violence we just saw in San Bernardino requires INSTANT response and our peace officers are usually minutes away when seconds count.

Regarding our ever present criminal element, they, by definition, do not obey the law, so I fail to see how additional laws binding those of us who are law abiding would reduce their violent proclivities. Unfortunately, the bad guys will always find a way to obtain weapons and we, the law abiding, should, I believe, be prepared to defend our societal norms when the need arises.

Dennis

"the bad guys will always find a way"
NO, they won't. Some will, but it's worth some effort to make sure those who are less determined (most criminals are both poorly organized and lazy) don't.

william wrote:"the bad guys will always find a way"
NO, they won't. Some will, but it's worth some effort to make sure those who are less determined (most criminals are both poorly organized and lazy) don't.

Not sure what metrics you are quoting that indicate most criminals are poorly organized and lazy. Perhaps you can elucidate. However, based on this thread, and by your own logic, you are not concerned with the poorly organized and lazy (since they can't/won't find a way to obtain a gun). Therefore, you must be concerned about those who are neither too poorly organized nor lazy to do so, and therefore WILL find a gun illegally. In other words, those who ignore our current laws and will ignore any future gun control laws.

Thus, I'm still curious about exactly what steps you advocate to prevent these folks from obtaining guns and committing crimes with them. Will these folks obey more restrictive gun laws? Probably not. However, we honest folks will obey, even when they curtail our constitutional rights.

I don't believe additional restrictions on guns will impact the criminal element in society. Instead, we need to enforce the existing laws and hand down stiff sentences for those who commit crimes with guns. We should also provide better care and treatment for the mentally ill, and make it easier for health care professionals and family members to identify those in need of help while maintaining the constitutional rights and dignity of those who may need help. Finally, I believe that a national right to carry law should be considered for those of us who are neither convicted felons nor among those adjudicated as mentally unfit. Training should be a prerequisite for a CCW, but then, that is already a requirement everywhere CCWs are issued, to the best of my knowledge. What say you?

Dennis

There is only one comparison that truly explains our problem.

USA verses Switzerland

The USA has 2 times as many guns per capita than Switzerland
The USA murder rate per 100,000 people (all weapons) is 6 1/2 times higher than Switzerland.

So as you can see we have a bad guy problem, not a gun problem. Still don't buy it.

Incarceration rates per 100,000
Switzerland 84
USA 698 or 8.3 times higher than Switzerland, see a trend yet??

Is there a need to explain the unprecedented increase in CCW permits and gun purchases over the last few years? Oh and by the way with this huge increase in gun sales the murder rates have actually been coming steadily down over the last few years. 5.6/100,000 in 2008 to 4.5/100,000 in 2014. These are from the FBI stats not some biased news media.

- Dave

What makes “bad guys”? Where, why and how do their thought processes and values go sideways? A person is borne with an unprogrammed brain. In our society how do we feed those brains, and with what? From the moment a child is old enough to be parked in front of a television [or computer] what do they see? How are they entertained?

Violence and butchery can be accomplished with anything the hand can grasp, and even the hands themselves are weapons. In the US there are lots of firearms, so they are a convenient tool. I suspect that if guns are eliminated the violence will continue with other devices. It isn’t a firearm problem, it’s a social problem. We need to become aware how media indoctrinates with its constant barrage of violence. History has shown how quickly populations can become molded to be aggressive.

My grandfather was a WW-1 vet, my father a WW-II vet. I was introduced to shooting by them in the 50’s. The game back then was target shooting, the round bullseye type. There were sportsman’s clubs where people would show up on weekends with .22s, centerfire revolvers, or military surplus 45’s and chase the 10-ring. Television was a new thing in those days and the programming was different. Children watched variety shows, sitcoms, and news. What has been mass produced by the entertainment media [TV, movies, video games] since then? From the moment of their consciousness we have programmed the population to react with violence. How many movies have you seen that include a firearm? What about video games? Park your young kids in front of that stuff and notice how it influences their behavior. What do you see at gun ranges today? I see people emulating what they see in all that media. It’s now about tactical and double-stack mags, and paranoia. The targets are silhouettes, and the shooters are in fantasy land.

The anti-gun crowd will argue that US media is broadcast around the world and other countries don’t have a gun violence problem like the US does. They are correct, in restricted countries the gun is not the chosen weapon. The lack of firearms does not appear to stop violent crime, though.

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-inf ... lt-victims

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... icide_rate

It’s a social problem.

If you need any info on why we shouldn't be just comparing cherry picked nations in the developed world: https://mises.org/blog/mistake-only-com ... -countries

I kinda liked this part:

https://mises.org/blog/gun-control-fail ... and-canada