Need Info On Basic Beginner Pistols, and Rifles

[scolist]

I have a lot of friends with no firearm experience. I have at least 6 women & 3 men who are willing to be taught. I only plan on teaching them what it's like to hold these guns, and be able to fire them at 10yds. I want them to be able to protect themselves at home.

What I'm looking for is:

Air pistols in the $100 range

Air rifles in the $200-250 range

Minimal maintenance and reliability are primary concerns.

Caliber is not of importance at this point.

Any, and all suggestions will be considered.

Thank You All,
Scott Listemann

[Chris__Colorado]

NT=No text
This is a site for competition and olympic shooting.
But, I'll post what I PM'd so you can get more feedback from others.
*****
My number 1 recommendation would be to attend a NRA/NSSF course for new shooters AND the local state CCW course.
I really like the Johnny Appleseed events too.

I strongly recommend paying for insurance (self defense/CCW insurances are available from several places).
If you have a gun, and even think about using it in a self defense situation, you want a lawyer and insurance to protect you, your assets, job, and family. This can run to several hundred dollars a year, but worth it--just like home insurance protects your home. Criminal AND Civil suits are expensive, and you most likely WILL face both in an event/weapons discharge, not to mention the short or long term PTSD effects on self and family (present or not).

Both training and insurance are a necessity if you even think you might reach for a handgun over a couple of cans of bear spray strategically placed all around the house ($50/can x 4-6 cans is less than a firearm and very effective, with the relatively same standoff distance of 50' or more). Always good to have options in the continuum of force.

I generally do not consider a shooter trained or comfortable until they have been shot at least 400-500 rounds in their pistol over 2-3 months of live fire practice. Plus a bunch of dry firing with a cheap laser pointer taped to their gun. Drawing, sight alignment, trigger control are all skills that need practice to perform well under stress.
How often does a football team practice their plays--too often to count!

But, if you want to teach non-shooters without doing the above, here's what I would recommend:

http://www.crosman.com/custom-shop/
2300KT CO2 Carbine with the following options
22 caliber 7.5" barrel
Long steel breech
Standard Plastic Grip
Blade Front Sight or Black Muzzle Brake
LPA MIM Rear Sight
RED trigger shoe

108.09 with the Black Muzzle Brake or just 96.09 with the Blade Front Sight.

WHY:
Single shot for safety and control
CO2 relatively inexpensive (generally 50c/cartridge and amazon prime has Crosman 40 count package for 17.22 )
.22 caliber pellets easier to handle (larger) and make targets jump more
RED trigger as a reminder for "Finger off the trigger until sights are on target"
Iron sights just like most pistols
Simple and common bolt action transfers well to a standard bolt action rifle
Not necessarily a plus for real pistols, but makes for an easier transition the my next recommendation.

For rifle, nothing beats the QB78 family for thee same reasons as above.
Plus, it's a all wood/steel airgun clone/copy of the Crosman 160 (sadly discontinued in 1971).
http://www.archerairguns.com/qb78-airgu ... s-s/27.htm
A stock QB78/QB79 can be had for right at 100-110 plus shipping.

The difference between the QB78 and QB79 is that the QB79 allows a variety of CO2 sources to be used.
I prefer the QB78/QB79 with the "two stage like" trigger kit and hammer debounce device from the custom shop.
Better trigger and more shots (more efficient use of CO2 and also a bit quieter)
http://www.archerairguns.com/QB78-delux ... p-s/56.htm
Stocks are inexpensive (under $30) and can be cut down for kids.


Next step is Ruger MKII/III pistol
Next after that is 22LR revolver.
Then a Single Shot 22LR rifle (bolt action just like the QB78/QB79)
Then we graduate to 10/22 and a variety of 9mm pistols.

For some who want to try, the GP100 357 or Colt 1911 comes out...which make the 9mm pistols seem much more nice (which is the point).
Don't forget, if you shoot indoors, inside a house, you likely won't be wearing hearing protection.
Having fired inside vehicles and other enclosed spaces, this is not "fun" without hearing protection. You will very likely suffer hearing damage.

As much as I love my 1911s, quality modern 9mm ammo (think $1 per round or more) in a quality modern pistols (I prefer Sig P228/P229/P226/p320 compact, but many like Glock/S&W, etc.) are my preference. Better to have 13+ rounds in the hand than 6-8 rounds, plus 9mm tends to be more controllable to newbies than .45. Normal/full size or compact pistols are more controllable than tiny subcompact pistols (mass helps tame recoil). Fit is important for ladies/smaller hands --I like the p320 compact version (not sub compact!) or P228/P229.

Just an opinion.

Chris

[SteveT]

Sory I can't help you but I've not seen a decent airgun for under $100. Both of my recommendations are more than your specified range, but are, IMO much better guns for a little more money. They are accurate enough to go a step or two beyond just throwing pellets downrange.

Daisy 717/747 single stroke pistol (~$150)

Daisy has a few "target" pellets guns for $100-200, but I'd step up to the 853 (~$300). I've got one, it shoots decent.

[kevinweiho]

I want them to be able to protect themselves at home.

What I'm looking for is:

Air pistols in the $100 range

Air rifles in the $200-250 range

Minimal maintenance and reliability are primary concerns.

Caliber is not of importance at this point.

I would recommend the Beeman P17 airpistol ($35), once all o-rings have been changed, air intake hole deburred, the pistol will be reliable. Some of the guns are trouble free out of the box and will not need any seal replacement. Has the feel and heft of a full sized service handgun, accurate, and recoilless.

As for air rifles, the Walther Terrus and Diana RWS 34 air rifles (from $230 to $255) offer fine german craftsmanship, very good accuracy, and require minimal maintenance since they are spring piston guns.

Remember that airguns cannot be used for home protection, they are intented for recreational shooting and honing your "follow through". If your friends decide to purchase a handgun for self defense, I also agree with Chris that the 9mm is the best round for the purpose. Many guns and bullet brands are available, ammo is cheaper than other big calibers, means you get more range time to practice, and modern hollowpoints now make the caliber more efficient than ever. Another interesting fact to take into account is that newbies tend to be more accurate with striker fired pistols than the SA/DA hand guns.

If you need a long gun for home protection without much training to use, I would highly recommend a 12GA shotgun.

[shootright]

Scott I do a training course with adults and Kids we do class with airgun and or airsoft.
I teach basic pistol and rifle thru 10meter air rifle and pistol, then I also teach them how to shoot self defense action shooting. We still use air/soft action guns we like to put people in a position they have to over come a fast pace and heart rate so we use a 3 gun course that is done with air/soft guns pistol/rifle/shotgun.
https://www.facebook.com/14735789864343 ... =2&theater

and we also do head to head challenge plate rack.

https://www.facebook.com/14735789864343 ... =2&theater

[Texdance]

I have a lot of friends with no firearm experience. I have at least 6 women & 3 men who are willing to be taught. I only plan on teaching them what it's like to hold these guns, and be able to fire them at 10yds. I want them to be able to protect themselves at home.

What I'm looking for is:

Air pistols in the $100 range

Air rifles in the $200-250 range

Minimal maintenance and reliability are primary concerns.

Caliber is not of importance at this point.

Any, and all suggestions will be considered.

Thank You All,
Scott Listemann

I suggest first off that anyone intending to teach shooting should first take a course on coaching that particular subject. NRA, 4H, and many others offer courses - but the are not especially cheap, nor do they occur often, and they are often at inconvenient locations, so getting certified takes some work and perseverance on the part of a future shooting coach.

There are many facets to shooting safely, especially if a firearm is to be kept in a home where children live or visit. Simply telling kids to stay away from momma's gun does not work - the young brain does not recognize the danger of a firearm, since their brain is not able to conceptualize death or injury or future consequences beyond the next few minutes of their little lives. No amount of telling or yelling or learning songs about keeping away from guns will prevent a person under about age 8 from pulling the trigger on a handgun - if they ever get one in their possession - and that is a fact which has been well proven time after time, with tragic consequences for all concerned.

The OP does not state his level of training, but guessing from his queries about which guns to use, I would say his training is informal at best. So I suggest personal 'how to coach shooting' training should be first on the agenda, rather than choice of firearms to use in a teaching program.

The OP mentions teaching home protection, but a handgun is not first choice for home protection. People like to think having a handgun in the home protects them, but in fact it probably makes their home less safe, compared to having a shotgun, or better locks and outdoor lighting and heavier doors, or for those that can afford one, a 'panic' room. It is the trained person's use of a handgun around the home that will make it safer or less safe - choice of ammunition, gun storage, how to clear the house, how to get family members out of the line of fire, 'fire' drills, etc - these factors and more should all be addressed. Never assume that simply having a loaded gun around the house is all it takes to make one safe in the home.

I applaud the OP's intent to help others, but suggest he first get certified in some manner so he can learn more about how to correctly and effectively get new shooters up to speed.

[shootright]

I agree find a coach and RSO course if your not find someone to do the training.

[randy1952]

If your purpose is just basic gun handling and self defense, which is not the purpose of this forum. I would take the NRA basic firearms and home defense course, which probably means you will need to become an NRA instructor, so you can teach those courses. You can become an instructor and just teach the basic firearms and home defense course if you feel confident with teaching those courses right off the bat.

There are plenty of air soft and pellet look alike guns from Pyramyd Air and www.airgundepot.com. The guns look like the real cartridge versions and the prices are generally below $100. However, they won't have the weight and recoil of the real firearms, which can be an issue for teaching a newbie self defense. The airsoft and pellet guns are generally okay for just basic gun handling, aiming and shooting techniques. However, beyond that you need to shoot and practice with the firearm that your going to use to defend yourself with. You can get into trouble if your not use to handling a firearm with recoil, clearing jams, and many other factors needed to be a safe self defense shooter. I have taken several self defense courses and there is no substitute for learning with your own self defense weapon.

You can break the courses into two different courses one with just the basic gun handling and safety (Basic Firearms Course) and then move into the next advance course where you learning with the firearms the students are going to use the firearm they are going to use for self defense. You should also take the Range Safety Officer course. You should also look into insurance from the NRA for at least liability purposes.

Good luck.

[Texdance]

Great replies from many Targettalk members.

I am impressed with the range of comments and the focus on safety and training.

One addition - some airsoft pistols and rifles come in clear/transparent plastic, which is what I recommend. The clear ones are less likely to be mistaken for real firearms when casually practicing on one's own property. There was a recent case where a child was kicked out of grade school because he was playing with an airsoft arm - but he was playing in his own front yard, shooting at nothing more than his parent's property. Some neighbor, unfamiliar with firearms or even toy firearms, called police and the school and of course the non-event was escalated into something serious by the powers-that-be.

Aside: Years ago we had the Mattel Fanner 50 and the Mattel Shootin' Shell 45 cap pistols, to name a couple. Today, unlimbering and busting caps with either of those in your own yard (like we kids used to do all the time in the 50s) will get a full-gear SWAT team called to the scene in an instant.

p.s. My Shootin' Shell 45 was just like the one in the middle of the photo below. Note the loading gate on the right side of the cylinder. Six Shootin' Shell cartridges were mated with their plastic bullets, a Greenie Stick-M-Cap was peeled off its master sheet and stuck to the rear of each cartridge, then the bullet/case/cap assembly was inserted through the loading gate into the rotating cylinder, one at a time until all six were loaded. When fired, a small spring behind the plastic bullet would send the light 'bullet' about six or eight feet past the end of the barrel, whence it fell to the floor and inevitably rolled under some heavy furniture.