TargetTalk

Id like to share a thought here. I find much of my time shooting prone, Im not having trouble trying to get into a stable position, nor having a stable hold. My biggest challenge is maintaining a clear sight image. It gets blurry just after about 10 seconds, and that is during NORMAL breathing. Im not even holding my breath. I dont use glasses, but in my forties I might have to consider? Im often changing the position of my head to get a clear sight. That works for awhile but after maybe 10 seconds or so, the ring gets blurry. I changed to bigger sight insert, 3,6 and that was better, but Im not over this. Still fighting for a position or sight that gives me a clear image for a good long time.

Im doing good and advancing well in this sport, but I think this is my biggest challenge and really burns up much of my time during competition, stuggling to see. Any suggestions from those of you that have been doing this for a long time?

PS, and THANKS.

Not sure about your photos, but if you are looking for a sight picture like the top photo, you cannot get it without refocusing on the aperture and the target (in either order). Most young shooters do that, as their eyes "accommodate" (change focal length) very fast. You are at the age that accommodation begins to be slower and slower.

You may have heard a coach say to focus on the front sight, and that is what you want to do, but you expectations of what you will see needs to be changed. The front sight ring should be sharp, but the bull will be slightly fuzzy (it's not possible to focus on two things that far apart at the same time).

Moving your head is detrimental. There is a thing called "quiet eye" and those who maintain that will usually fire better shots.

Things to try are more light (bigger aperture). Perhaps just front, or just rear. Eventually you may need both. Shorter time before firing the shot. Relaxing your eyes between shots by "unfocusing" (just stare off into space).

That is a very nice input. Ive never had a coach, but Thank you.

"The quiet eye"...can you explain a littlebit?

I'd suggest booking an appointment with a good optician/opthalmologist, one who has experience of working with shooters -ask around at your club for recommendations here.

As Pat says, moving your head around to get a good sight picture is not ideal. In my experience it usually occurs when the rifle doesn't fit the position. For prone shooting the shape and position of the cheekpiece, and length/height/position of the butt together with sling tension are the likely culprits. Getting a well balanced and steady position is a topic in its own right, although a difficult one to answer over the net.

As for achieving a good sight picture, i.e. sharp foresight and slightly fuzzy target, the rear aperture plays a big part. This stretches and narrows your focus so the foresight and target are almost in focus together. But you can't have both in sharp focus: teenagers can almost get there (usually by flicking back and forth). However, as you age changing your focal distance rapidly gets harder, and holding your focus at a set distance (especially one that doesn't naturally suit your eye) is tiring, and takes conscious effort and checking. Good distance vision is not always enough, something many opticians don't appreciate. Often a shooting specific prescription lens will help to focus your eye properly without straining the eye muscles, so the sight picture looks good and lasts for longer. Typically with aging/long sighted eyes the lens will bring your focus back, a little ahead of the foresight. Some optical maths is involved in getting the correct lens as sight radius (i.e. long barrel extension tubes) can make a difference. My optician adds +0.50 onto my distance prescription - so normal +1.0, shooting +1.50. I don't have a strong prescription, but the correction really does help me to aim without thinking about where my focus should be, so I can concentrate on shooting. This may be what you need.

Tim said it well.

You may be able to get a clear sight picture but your eyes are not relaxed so they fade. Art (Shooting Sight) has a set of test lenses that help. If you go to his site it may explain the math. Other problems include neck pressure and looking out of the top of your eye. You might want to look through a Right Sight if you don't already use one.

Mark

RE: Quiet Eye

Several years ago at the USAS Coach Conference a study was presented by a group (an East coast university I think), where the shooters wore a "halo" type device (like used for broken necks) to allow small cameras to track the eyes during shooting.

Those who were able to settle into a shot with the least eye movement after mounting the rifle were able to shoot the best shots. Those of use with "floaters" fight a constant battle of having to get a the floater to move away (blinking or small eye movement), then fire before the floater returns to settle in the line of vision. (Just ONE of my excuses for falling score average :))

Just to echo what Tim said - if you have perfect distance vision then using a +0.5 diopter lens will help you focus on the foresight while not making the aiming mark too blurry. It has the effect of maximizing the depth of field in such a way that you are not limited to closing down the rear iris to get the foresight and target "in focus" as best you can. In fact, with a +0.5 lens, opening up the rear iris seems to reduce the optical distortion that older eyes are prone to without any downside.
(I'm currently shooting well with a 1.5-1.6mm rear iris...)

Also, foresight size - measure your sightbase from the foresight to your eye, for a 39" sightbase it is advised not to go less than a 4.0mm element and for every inch less (or more) come down (or up) by 0.1mm. So for a 36" sightbase use a 3.7 element or a 44" sightbase will require a 4.5 element.
If you have a 35" sightbase then your 3.6 element is good.
This comes from the USAMU(?) idea that you need 3MOA of white between the target and the foresight for optimal aiming.

Quiet Eye is defined as - ‘the final fixation on a location that is within 3ᵒ of visual angle for a minimum of 100ms’
Basically, a long soft gaze rather than a jumpy flickery one... (Google is your friend here)

And finally - after taking a shot, close your eyes and if you can see an afterimage of the sight picture then you aimed for too long. Coming onto aim, looking away and then looking back might help but once that picture is burnt into your retina then you can't be sure WHAT you're looking at... Your aim could be horribly misaligned and you'd just not see it.

Ken.

I find that if I look at the brightly lit target with my shooting eye for a few seconds between each shot, my vision is sharper when I aim. I'm guessing that it has something to do with my pupil dilating as it gets less light when aiming.

Foresight element size recommendations should really come with a note of the target type being used. Shooters in the USA using American NRA targets will need much smaller element sizes than those shooting on ISSF targets, or national targets where the aiming mark is proportional to the ISSF target. So for US shooters using American targets and shooting on average length sight base, 3.6 is towards the larger end of the range. While for British or ISSF shooters 3.6mm is really on the small end of the range, if not really too small. On those targets I would suggest 3.8 to 4.0, although for the NSRA short range 10 spot targets the size is somewhat limited by incursion of adjacent aiming marks. I always wondered why Anschutz put all those little sized elements in the box of plastic elements they sell. I didn't realise just how small the US aiming marks are in comparison to the ones we use.

Alan

KennyB wrote: And finally - after taking a shot, close your eyes and if you can see an afterimage of the sight picture then you aimed for too long. Coming onto aim, looking away and then looking back might help but once that picture is burnt into your retina then you can't be sure WHAT you're looking at... Your aim could be horribly misaligned and you'd just not see it.

Ken.

The above quote needs a little elaboration as this is dependent on you not having fast creating afterimages. I have never been able to focus on one spot more than a second or two as I create afterimages immediately. I can normally look at something/anything (the brighter, the faster) for a fraction of a second and have an afterimage. This means I have never been able to adopt the quiet eye technique mentioned above. I usually move around the foresight element every few seconds to refresh the image. Prone was always the harder event as aiming is so motionless (was never able to exceed mid 590s or so) and standing the easier one. That little extra movement helps a lot in ensuring knowing where my aim currently is at. I still move around the foresight element quite a bit (which is necessary) but I trust my aiming more than in prone. Add in floaters and aiming becomes interesting!

Lots of good advice in the previous posts. I have moderate dry eye where the tear layer dries too quickly and causes exactly the same response as you describe.
I have "cured" it by using lubricant eye drops and use preservative free eye drops before I shoot. Apparently as we get older our eyes can suffer from a deteriorating tear layer quality which causes the sight picture to fade or blur much quicker.
I still get the problem on hot or windy days but it is much improved using the drops.

Again your optometrist will be able to tell you if you are suffering from any form of dry eye. Tell them your symptoms and then ask if you have any form of dry eye. Even mild dry eye is enough to change your prescription enough to give a variable and poor sight picture.
Martin H

Martin, can you share specifically what eye drops (brand) are working for you?

I use Systane Ultra UD preservative-free drops 10-15 min before I shoot. These usually get me through a 60 shot match without the sight picture deteriorating. However a hot or windy day can be challenging.
I have to use Systane Gel drops or Alcon Polygel drops at other times to keep my eyes from drying out. If using the gel drops, I have to wait approx 45-60 min before I shoot as they are too thick and viscous to see through clearly.
Martin.

Martin H wrote:I use Systane Ultra UD preservative-free drops 10-15 min before I shoot. These usually get me through a 60 shot match without the sight picture deteriorating. However a hot or windy day can be challenging.
I have to use Systane Gel drops or Alcon Polygel drops at other times to keep my eyes from drying out. If using the gel drops, I have to wait approx 45-60 min before I shoot as they are too thick and viscous to see through clearly.
Martin.

These

Great Input, and lots of informative answers.... - Riflescopeguy

True, good stuff.

I found a great improvement when I closed the opening of the rear iris. As soon as the opening got smaller, the target got sharper.

Dont know why - it just works.

Giddaymate wrote:True, good stuff.

I found a great improvement when I closed the opening of the rear iris. As soon as the opening got smaller, the target got sharper.

Dont know why - it just works.

Because that's what the rearsight does; it makes your focus distance longer and narrower, so the foresight and target become sharper. However, if the aperture is too small the sight picture will become too dark to aim consistently. This is why many shooters get a shooting specific lens, so they can have the focus without reducing the aperture too much.

A smaller opening increases the depth of field. Too small and your eyes become fatigued for a lack of light. Too large and it is difficult to keep the front sight and target in near focus. On a dark day you have to sacrifice some of the field of view for light; target becomes fuzzy. To set it close the iris all the way down and then open it to where the light pops (gets brighter all of a sudden). Anytime the conditions change it should be readjusted. I use the lens to get the focus to a point just in front of the front sight, where my eyes can stay relaxed during a long match and I can still see the target well enough to shoot X's.

Mark

On another note - Does eating sugary foods (lots of them) the night before - have any effect on heartrate and hold?

I think you should start another topic on the subject of sugary foods, you will get many answers.
Short answer, yes, sugary foods effect your hold and heart rate. Overnight, maybe, I thought the effects would diminished after 8-10 hours.
Martin