TargetTalk

So, Ireland is seeing some fairly controversial changes being proposed to its firearms laws at the moment:

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/11/17/lea ... uns-alone/

(Irish Firearms Law is *spectacularly* complex btw: http://guns.ie/2015/01/23/just-complica ... w-diagram/ )

As part of that I wound up being one of the dozen or so shooters talking to the government committee handling this:

http://guns.ie/2015/01/09/submission-co ... licensing/
http://guns.ie/2015/01/16/2868/

Not the greatest chunk of fun of all time, but in the midst of all this, there was a rather funny moment, when the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality agreed that we shouldn't put Santa in jail for breaking the Firearms Act :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrWq1mvxxDk

Enjoy :D

Thanks for sharing that. Very informative along with thorough, factually-based, well-reasoned arguments in addition to the Santa example.

I didn't know much about Irish firearms law before reading your links so I was quite surprised to see how restrictive it is (a 1 joule limit on airguns before they're classified as firearms?!?) Guess that means schoolboys have to be careful to not blow too hard when shooting spitwads out of straws - after all, a standard blowgun makes more than 1 joule...

Anyway, good luck with your efforts and keep us informed.

Here in Canada, the limit had long been understood to be 500 fps (152 meters per second) or 5.7 joules for air guns to become firearms. Above that, the requirements are the same as powder-burning firearms. All was well and people enjoyed their 495 fps guns freely.

However, a court case in November 2014 (R. v. Dunn) argued that any gun capable of velocities of 214 fps (65 meters per second) is capable of inflicting "serious bodily harm", if fired into an eye. It is therefore to be considered a firearm, for purposes of storage, transportation and use. But not licencing (you can still buy them freely). Now you can be facing jail time for not transporting your 260 fps BB pistol in a locked case... Or not keeping your Steyr LP10 locked at home. You could be facing jail time for playing paintball (pointing and discharging a "firearm" at someone!). What a mess. Let's hope politicians sort it out.

Mark I took the time fully to read of of your links. in several places I note that you talk about power levels for air guns before they become firearms. You state that the Republic is the only EU state in which an airgun is considered a firearm if the energy is above 1J. This is actually incorrect. Here in the UK all airguns above 1J are also considered to be firearms under the law. The main difference is that they do not require a firearms certificate unless they produce an energy level of 6 fpe for a Pistol and 12 fpe (approx 16J) for a rifle. This situation then throws up quite a few anomalies.

For example it allows for an air rifle or pistol that physically looks like other firearms to be sold without additional restrictions. So a CO2 powered air pistol producing more than 1J and less than 6 fpe can look like say a Colt 1911 pistol. A similar realistic looking toy plastic BB gun producing less than 1J though is a realistic imitation firearm, and can only be sold to specially authorised persons.

Another situation which is especially difficult for some is that although under UK law all air guns over 1 fpe are legally considered to be firearms, the British government will not issue European Firearms Passes for any firearm that does not require a British FAC. This can make travelling to other EU states, that fully recognise the EFP system, but require licensing, and thus an EFP for those air guns very difficult. Whats worse is I can have a free EFP for my British licensed firearms.

Anyway good luck with your current legislative issues in the Republic.

Alan

desben wrote:Here in Canada, the limit had long been understood to be 500 fps (152 meters per second) or 5.7 joules for air guns to become firearms.

I'll just amend that a little, as this is a common misunderstanding of the law in Canada. It's not 'or' it's 'and.' An airgun needs (needed?) To be BOTH above 499fps and produce 5.7 joules or more at the muzzle to be considered a firearm. An airgun measuring 600fps with a lightweight tin or other high velocity low mass pellet was still fine as a non-licensed weapon prior to the Dunn decision, and I think remains so. Hence the increasingly exploited development of big bore airguns in Canada. One can still acquire or build an airgun with for example a .45" projectile with a mass of 135gr, and so long as it leaves the muzzle at 499fps or slower there is no need for a firearms license (PAL). If that projectile is at the low end of the weight spectrum for that calibre at any rate, as the RCMP test using the lightest lead projectile available, or that's my understanding. So to be on the safe side on could use a velocity of 450fps with a light bullet, and still be in possession of a legal but definitely lethal weapon. I siluspect this may have had some bearing on the Dunn case, even though it didn't come into the written decision. The RCMP cannot possibly be unaware of the rapid growth of big bore sub-500fps airguns in Canada over the past several years.

BigAl wrote:Mark I took the time fully to read of of your links. in several places I note that you talk about power levels for air guns before they become firearms. You state that the Republic is the only EU state in which an airgun is considered a firearm if the energy is above 1J. This is actually incorrect. Here in the UK all airguns above 1J are also considered to be firearms under the law. The main difference is that they do not require a firearms certificate unless they produce an energy level of 6 fpe for a Pistol and 12 fpe (approx 16J) for a rifle.

The confusion's more because I was trying to simplify things for people who didn't understand the law - I thought that trying to explain how the EU calls for category D and C firearms to be treated might just muddy the waters too much. In Irish law, airsoft replicas are still governed by the firearms act, but they're not legally classed as firearms (they're classed as replica imitation firearms under the law); but then our definition of what is a legal firearm itself is, bluntly, not fit for purpose. It includes rifles, pistols and shotguns allright, and any airgun over 1 joule, but it also includes crossbows (of any draw weight meaning it includes toy crossbows too), starter pistols and other blank-firing pistols, flare guns, any kind of stun gun, anything that'd be a firearm if it wasn't broken (or decommissioned), and any component part of a firearm. And all of those are treated as category B firearms under the EU directive's terms (if not a little stricter) whereas most other nations would use all four of the EU's categories.

So technically, my air rifle's cheekpiece is legally a firearm in and of itself. And strictly speaking, you could ask for a licence for it. Or any M4 bolt or other part from the rifle, even if I could buy an identical part from any DIY shop here.

Yeah, like I said, not fit for purpose.

Not to mention hard to read: here's a graph of the various Acts in Irish law you have to read to understand what all the law that applies to firearms is. If you look at all the acts in the green box there, they all have to be read together to get the Firearms Act, starting with the 1925 Act and then applying every Act that came after it - though some of those amend not just the 1925 Act but also some of the subsequent Acts. In software engineering, we'd call this a rat's nest...

Anyway good luck with your current legislative issues in the Republic.

Thanks - I worry we'll need all we can get...