TargetTalk

I have a few questions for the experienced out there. My son currently is shooting air rifle with a FWB 700 JR. It was recommended that the smallbore rifle I purchase be a FWB 2700 light. He is a smaller structured young man and the weight of the rifle has always been an issue in offhand. It makes good sense to stay brand loyal and keep both rifles feeling the same in the shooters hand/body. BUT....

Does the FWB 2700 light have any reviews out there?
Are we sacrificing anything going with the shorter barrel?

Is it not a good idea to mix brands ie: FWB Air rifle and Anschutz Smallbore?

It seems there is not as many FWB smallbore rifle in the marketplace as Anschutz. Will service parts be an issue by going with the FWB?

Also when do you know, when a shooter is ready for a highend precision smallbore rifle?

Any other input greatly appreciated.

Thanks everyone!

I've had a similar conversation with others lately and I get the logic - shoot a similar stock/gun in air rifle and smallbore to mimic consistency. However, in my limited experience I prefer my junior shooters to use what is comfortable to them since smallbore 3P and air rifle both have their separate challenges. Case in point, my 13 year old son shoots a FWB 800 air rifle (12.2 lbs) but he has a modified Anschutz 1907 in a 1914 stock (7.9 lbs). We actually have a reduced barrel from the 1907 and use a sight extension tube to get it back to the 1907 length. He shoots both fine and we never had much of an issue with the adjustment from one to another.

FWB makes a fine smallbore but depending on your sons age and ability you may want to think about the direction your headed. If he is starting out (1000-1100+/- in 3P, <600.00 prone) perhaps a used rifle to start with may be more appropriate until he learns what he likes and does not like. Anschutz (and Im not trying to push them here) is a good option because the 54 barreled action is versatile with a variety of stocks that young shooters can grow into, and used ones arent too hard on the pocketbook (because of the number on the market) but dependable and accurate enough to perform in precision shooting.

I cant tell you the number of times someone has bought on the "because" come, only to not be satisfied and usually ends up selling and repurchasing something else.

I also understand the shorter barrel question but we have not noticed any issues with my sons. He shoots high enough to be competitive in smallbore and the barrel is 6" shorter than a standard 1907 plus its stainless steel. The biggest issue we fight with now is the lightness of the rifle, which was perfect when he was 10-13 and 5-4 now its pretty light and he has to really control the shot.

Also when do you know, when a shooter is ready for a highend precision smallbore rifle?

Hmm thats an age old question and everyone seems to have an opinion. At our club I try to start them at 12 as a measuring bar for consistency, but its really when they have the interest and desire. My son started smallbore in 4-H at 8 and started precision (50m prone and 50m 3P) at 10 while continuing 4-H.In younger kids you have the same critical watch list as you do with precision air rifle, watch their form, protect their bodies, dont over strain the back. But if hes already shooting air rifle 60 shots then hes fine to start smallbore, if he wants to.

Lots of good help here on the forum and in youth shooters so dont be shy we've all been there!

My son was a short lightweight who could shoot decent standing scores with his Feinwerkbau 700 but lousy standing scores with his 52D that weighed over 12lbs. I bought him a bridge rifle, a Walther KKM for $750.00. The stock of the KKM had the butt chopped a few inches for a previous junior shooter and I removed the heavy butt stock hardware from the 70's and replaced it with a lightweight Champions Choice butt plate and hook. The barrel of this gun was 24 inches and not overly heavy. The total weight of the rifle ended up at 9.5 lbs, about the same weight as his Feinwerkbau 700. His standing scores immediately went from the 50's to the 80's which was about where his standing scores were with his 700. This rifle was highly accurate with a great trigger as most Walthers have. He shot 200-19x prone at the Jr State Championship to give you an idea of what the gun was capable of. I just checked the prices of these guns and they can be bought in the $500-$900 dollar range. I was going to buy him a Feinwerkbau 2700 this year but he joined the army and goes to basic next month, No need to spend $3000+ right now unless I get back into shooting. I just related this because this worked for my son and might work for you too. Good luck.
Chris

Good Info guys, Thank You!

Please keep the info coming, looking to possibly purchase this new smallbore rifle in January sometime.

He has jumped in scores rather quickly, Atleast I think, for both 3x20 3p and 60 rd international.

Theres lots of good information and discussion from the past on this site for that same question for discovery in the search, also perhaps moving the post to the youth coaching forum we may get some of the other youth coaches to weigh in. It would help to know the level (and remember people here are from novice to professional/Olympic), or if its easier feel free to PM me.

Gregory

In the 4 matches he participated in. 3x20 3P and 60 rd Offhand

He Started at 452-2X 3P to last match 534-15X, Last practice 3P was 558, i don't remember x count

Of the 3 60rd OH matches started at 464.7 to last match 532.0

We are making progress and he is happy, but wants to be further along than he is.

when do you know, when a shooter is ready for a highend precision smallbore rifle?

Typically when you start getting to work on the "last 10%" of the scores (last sixty points of 600) the equipment becomes more important. Not only from a "fit" standpoint", but from a "mental set" standpoint. It takes away one more thing to blame (or worry about) for lack of performance.

We are making progress and he is happy, but wants to be further along than he is.

Now is the time for more coaching in, and greater use of, the mental aspects of shooting See Basham's book "With Winning in Mind" , or "The New Position Rifle Shooting" by Pullam and Hannenkrat for good starts on mental training.

I agree with the other posts above; there is nothing that says that you have to have the same rifle between smallbore and air rifle. Having said that, the FWB appears to be a very nice smallbore rifle, although I have not shot one before. There are good shooters who use them (Ryan Anderson comes to mind), although they are far less common in the US. I would stay away from Walther if you are concerned about weight, their rifles only come with one barrel diameter and it is heavy. As for losing any accuracy with a short barrel, there is a lack of evidence that suggests that this is the case; it is my understanding that one of the main reasons for having a long barrel is to have a long enough sight radius, not for accuracy. However, many top shooters I know use short barrels; case in point look at Jamie Gray; she shot an Anschutz 2013 with a short barrel and long extension tube (or bloop tube) at the 2012 olympics and set a new world record. You can get an Anschutz 2013 with a short barrel in a precise stock; I believe they are about 4 grand from champions choice. You could also get a 1907 (lighter Anschutz series), and if that was too heavy, you can have a qualified gun smith cut it down, recrown it, and add a bloop tube. If you have the money and want a short barrel to begin with, buying the Anschutz 2013 would be a good bet. You could do the same to a FWB Having said all of this, we have had a number of barrels on our team cut down (and a tube added), and so far good scores have been shot with them, although they have not been tested at 50 yards. It is worth noting that I am 5-7 135 pounds, and I use a 1907 Anschutz precise (didn't want the extra weight of the 2013). Weight feels good to me, but if I had the money I would consider putting a short barrel on it.

-Zach

ZD wrote:I agree with the other posts above; there is nothing that says that you have to have the same rifle between smallbore and air rifle. Having said that, the FWB appears to be a very nice smallbore rifle, although I have not shot one before. There are good shooters who use them (Ryan Anderson comes to mind), although they are far less common in the US. I would stay away from Walther if you are concerned about weight, their rifles only come with one barrel diameter and it is heavy. As for losing any accuracy with a short barrel, there is a lack of evidence that suggests that this is the case; it is my understanding that one of the main reasons for having a long barrel is to have a long enough sight radius, not for accuracy. However, many top shooters I know use short barrels; case in point look at Jamie Gray; she shot an Anschutz 2013 with a short barrel and long extension tube (or bloop tube) at the 2012 olympics and set a new world record. You can get an Anschutz 2013 with a short barrel in a precise stock; I believe they are about 4 grand from champions choice. You could also get a 1907 (lighter Anschutz series), and if that was too heavy, you can have a qualified gun smith cut it down, recrown it, and add a bloop tube. If you have the money and want a short barrel to begin with, buying the Anschutz 2013 would be a good bet. You could do the same to a FWB Having said all of this, we have had a number of barrels on our team cut down (and a tube added), and so far good scores have been shot with them, although they have not been tested at 50 yards. It is worth noting that I am 5-7 135 pounds, and I use a 1907 Anschutz precise (didn't want the extra weight of the 2013). Weight feels good to me, but if I had the money I would consider putting a short barrel on it.

-Zach

Zach is wrong about the Walther not coming in a light version. The KK300 with either stock can be ordered with a light weight barrel and it will shoot with ANY 3P gun out there. My grandson shoots one and it is capable of shooting all X's at 100 yds, so it will shoot cleans at 50 meters if the shooter is capable. Some of the best shooter in the world shoot Walther and they are available at ISS, Neil Stepp, in Fort Worth,TX.
Just my 2 cents and setting the record straight.
Ed

There's the Anschutz/Walther/FWB (much akin to Ford/Chevy/Dodge) fanaticism for you. They all make fine rifles for what your trying to achieve. An alternate option if your thinking weight reduction is to buy a stainless steel Lilja barrel in a shorter length fit to the action and stock of your choice.

-Zach[/quote]
Zach is wrong about the Walther not coming in a light version. The KK300 with either stock can be ordered with a light weight barrel and it will shoot with ANY 3P gun out there. My grandson shoots one and it is capable of shooting all X's at 100 yds, so it will shoot cleans at 50 meters if the shooter is capable. Some of the best shooter in the world shoot Walther and they are available at ISS, Neil Stepp, in Fort Worth,TX.
Just my 2 cents and setting the record straight.
Ed[/quote]


Here is the Walther catalog.
http://www.carl-walther.de/public/downl ... og_WEB.pdf

As Zach pointed out the KK300 can be ordered in a lightweight version. Some say they are easier to load in prone because the action is more compact. I was always an Anschutz guy by default, but then I tried a Walther. Now I certainly prefer Walther, but that is a personal choice. Good luck in your choice.

Not sure as I have lots more to add to the conversation but will reiterate a few points.

I too think the idea of brand consistency gets overplayed. It sounds good on paper but I have yet to see much of a correlation with top level shooters trying to stay in a specific brand for both air and smallbore.

As has been pointed out already, for most shooters, the discussion about Anschutz,FWB,Walther is a little like Ford,Chevy,Dodge. All great rifles and all capable of helping a newer shooter advance. Having said that, the Anschutz Match 54 action is a bit long in tooth. (The basic action was introduced in 1954, hence the name.) From what I have heard, the Walther action is probably the best of the three right now.

On the flip side, there are plenty of used Anschutz out there for reasonable prices, this would be a great place to start. If after a few years you or your son see a definitive reason to go with another brand, the Anschutz hold their value quite well and should be easy to sell. The other thing here is that as you buy accessories, most will transfer from one rifle to the next with few issues so you can get a new rifle and just transfer your favorite handstop or buttplate to the new rifle.

If weight is an issue, start with a light barrel, then, as has already been mentioned, cut the barrel and add an extension tube. This does up the expense and might cut down on your market when or if you go to resell.

If you do go the cutting the barrel route, around 20 inches is popular. I have seen them cut as short as 16 inches, below that their might be some issues with legality in how short you are allowed to cut the barrel of a rifle. (For reference I seem to recall the barrel Jamie Gray used in 2012 was 21 inches.)

Bottom line here, don't get too worked up about brand loyalty. In and ideal world I tell people, see if you can get a chance to pick up and hold all three. (If not too far, even worth a trip to Champions Choice) One of these rifles will feel better in your hands than the other. You probably won't even be able to quantify why that rifle is the one but the one that feels the best in YOUR hands is the one you should buy.

The reality, to get going a used Anschutz is likely the ticket. If you found one with the stock already cut down that would be ideal as you mention your son is on the light side.

Addressing some of your other questions, you may have to ship it somewhere but FWB service is available in the US. People like Champions Choice and International Shooter Service handle parts and in my experience, FWB parts availability is quite good. (They still sell service parts for the FWB 300 from the early 1970s) You may need to wait a little sometimes. Likewise, Walther parts are available, you just might need to wait a little if there is a issue.

Good Luck
'Dude

In regards to the Walther weight; I apologize; I just have never held or seen a Walther anatomic that could be ordered with a light barrel. I appear to have also projected my thoughts that the Walther is not a good rifle; its frequent appearance at World cups has suggested otherwise, it is just as accurate as an Anschutz or FWB.

-Zach

Fine rifles all, but no maker will beat Anschutz in the US in resale value, simply because of their inroads into the larger benchrest, sporter and silhouette markets and the volume of stocks and equipment ready made for them. Annies sell much faster, and often for more money.

Something to consider, as few junior 3P rifles are the youngster's last gun.

Very good information everyone. Thank you all.

As to the shorter barrel the length doesn't seem to matter but the sight radius matter a lot so a bloop tube would be an essential with a shorter barrel.

I would say step up in quality when your wallet can handle it. Life is too short to shoot a second rate gun or ammo. And no bad shot can be blamed on the equipment. Of course top of the line equipment adds up to about $10G for small bore, air and suit.

Well I talked with Neal @ ISS and George @ Brenzovich. They both came to the conclusion that the FWB 2700 Light would be the best match for his stature. They both assured me that service parts and such are readily available. Going to keep searching info. Want to make the best informed purchase, since this rifle cost more than my first car...LOL

I shoot a FWB 700 for airgun and an Anscutz 2013 in the precise stock and the short barrel and both guns fit me well. As far as stocks go for smallbore, the anschutz precise and FWB 2700 stocks are both very good. However, I would have to say that the new KK300 and MEC stocks give them a HUGE advantage over the other two, during finals.

As far as shooting a short barrel goes, the idea is that the bullet is not in the barrel as long; therefore, there is less time for the shooter to influence the bullet after the trigger is pulled. Whether that matters or not is up to debate. With accuracy, there is not really a difference between the short barrels or the long barrels. My barrel is a 500mm stock Anschutz barrel (the one that came with the gun), and out of a vice, it will shoot good lots of ammo below 13mm at 50m pretty consistantly (with its best 10-shot group ever being a 10.7mm at 50m). To summarize, short barrel or long barrel, it doesn't really matter as far as accuracy is concerned.

ZD wrote:the FWB appears to be a very nice smallbore rifle, although I have not shot one before. There are good shooters who use them (Ryan Anderson comes to mind)

This is true. However, Ryan has made the move to Bleiker.

If you want to find the best shooting rifles in the international game, all you need to do is go to ISSF's website, look through the prone pictures, and see what theyre using. With the decimal system, a great shooting rifle is a must in prone. Prone shooters generally test ammo more often than any other discipline.

What you will notice, is that Bleikers are the most used prone rifles, followed by Walther. In fact, at World Championships 2014, there were only Bleikers and Walthers in the Prone final. Same with World Cup Final 2014.

I made the switch from Anschutz to Walther. The Walther (with factory barrel) currently shoots just as well if not better than my Anschutz with a Benchmark barrel.

With how adjustable rifles' stocks are nowadays, the type of stock one uses is becoming less of an issue and there is not one specific type of stock dominating the World Cup circuit.

As far as the stock discussion goes, like dahigg mentioned, the new KK300 stock and the MEC stocks offer a great advantage in a 3 Position final. You will most likely see more and more people switching to something similar.

With the name Bleiker being tossed about I think it is important to keep this in context with the OPs needs, a relatively new junior moving from air rifle and trying smallbore.

Is Bleiker a fine rifle?, absolutely!!! Do you see more and more of them in the finals at World Cup events?, yes.

Is it reasonable to consider an uncommon rifle that costs $8000-$9000 USD by the time you get it home as the first smallbore rifle for a new junior?, absolutely not!!!

From what I can gather, this kid would probably be in great shape with a used Anschutz 1407 and a case of Wolf ammo. If you shop around a bit you could probably do that for comfortably under $2000.

'Dude