TargetTalk

Hi everybody,
Who shoots smallbore with the scope - which scope would you recommend for 50 meters (and 50ft on reduced target)?
What size and magnification should I look for, also which reticle is the best for target shooting on ISSF round target?

I have some bushnell 3-9/40 scope (got it for free or $20, probably) - but it totally useless as it's so unfocused that I cannot focus both the target and reticle.. It's ok for shooting beer cans, but definitely not for the target shooting.

You're going to get a lot of different answers on your questions that will probably be all over the map. I've followed the herd on scopes most of my shooting career and stayed with 20x to 24x magnification with standard reticles or Leupold's duplex. I would caution you not to buy a scope with a fine reticle or a 1/8 dot. Bigger is better than smaller. Mike Barron

mobarron wrote:You're going to get a lot of different answers on your questions that will probably be all over the map. I've followed the herd on scopes most of my shooting career and stayed with 20x to 24x magnification with standard reticles or Leupold's duplex. I would caution you not to buy a scope with a fine reticle or a 1/8 dot. Bigger is better than smaller. Mike Barron

OK, thank you!
So reticle like this (Fine Duplex) is too thin, or would be OK? http://www.leupold.com/reticles/fine-duplex/
I was always thinking that smaller dot (or thinner crosshair) would be beneficial, since tey are not covering that much of the target..
I was checking here http://www.leupold.com/scopefinder/ - and the maximum magnification for Duplex is 14x, while Fine Duplex has 20-25x.

If choosing from these 3 - what would you choose?
http://www.leupold.com/hunting-shooting ... m-adj-obj/
http://www.leupold.com/hunting-shooting ... fr-target/
http://www.leupold.com/hunting-shooting ... ide-focus/
Which features are needed?

Are you aware of the rules about sights for ISSF?

7.4.1.6 Sights
a) Corrective lenses and telescopes must not be attached to the
rifle;
b) Corrective lenses or eyeglasses, and/or filters or tinted
lenses, may be worn by the athlete;
c) Any sight not containing a lens or system of lenses or other
means of optical enhancement is permitted, except that light
or polarizing filters may be fitted to the front or rear sight, or
both;


This may be why you are getting few answers.

nester wrote:If choosing from these 3 - what would you choose?
http://www.leupold.com/hunting-shooting ... m-adj-obj/
http://www.leupold.com/hunting-shooting ... fr-target/
http://www.leupold.com/hunting-shooting ... ide-focus/
Which features are needed?

I don't shoot any sights ('scope) much, but No1 and No 3 have very small turrets. This may be OK for hunting, but for shooting prone I've found that larger turrets are so much easier to turn.

As for the cross hair, it needs to be fine enough that you can pick out a consistent aim point, but not so fine that you can't see them in less than ideal light conditions.

BTW you probably can focus the Bushnell scope for distance. You have to do this very carefully with the front lens; it should be threaded in the body.

I recommend and use the Leupold VX III 6.5x20x40 EFR scope with the cross hairs.

This is the scope to get for four position shooting.

Focus down to 50 foot for indoor competitions.

crystal clear optics.

Target zeroing knobs.

6.5 low mag for offhand

20 power for prone

objective is a reasonable size-you get them 56 mm scopes-they are just way too unweildly and unbalance the gun.

Regards,
Cranky

I own several rifle scopes for US Competition both smallbore prone and position as well as long range.
If I could only have one scope I would opt for a Leupold VX-3,6.5-20x40 EFR with a 1/4 minute Target Dot.
It is a most versatile rifle scope and runs about $800 USD. They have excellent customer service.

Of the three scopes you listed the second is the ONLY one I would consider. Personally I think the fine ret is perfectly OK when shooting on all black targets if you have the 1/8 MOA dot. If the lighting on a range is really that poor that you cannot see the reticle then I think you need to find a better lit range. On my old Fulton Mauser TR rifle I now have an Optimate 20×44 scope. This has a Duplex/Mil-dot (true at 20×) ret and at long range (1000 yards) the reticule is actually a bit too thick for a really fine sight placement. I have several fixed 36× scopes used on smallbore rifles, a Sightron SII BRD and a couple of Optimate's (a Weaver T36 clone) as well as an Optimate 8-32× all with FC-Dot rets. Mostly I use the 36×'s from the bench, although I use the 8-32 for 25yd Any sights LSR on an Air Arms S400 at about 24× shot off hand. I also used to use a Tasco 10-40× Target on my 1813 for prone Any Sights at both 50m and 100 Yards. I pretty much always used it set to 40× magnification though. I did not get the other scopes until after I had to give up shooting prone smallbore for health reasons.

In my view if shooting prone you want as much magnification as possible, and as fine a ret as you can see. Added to that you need big easy to use adjustment knobs. If using it for short range, then you also need to know that it will focus down to the range that you need. For PA scopes, it is possible to bring the focus in closer, even on scopes with front adjustment, but then you may lose infinity focus. This is not too much of a problem on scopes that will be used on rifles shot at short range only.

Alan

Thanks everybody,
(Yes, I know this is not for the ISSF rules events, but we have indor competition with "any" sights, and also to have a decent scope for my "recreational" .22 rifle),

so the "best overall and most versatile" scope would be this VX-3 6.5-20x40mm EFR Target with long knobs:


and the reticle - "Target dot":


I think this is 1/4 min dot;
not the 1/8 min target dot - which is found only on fixed 35x 40x and 45x fixed scopes, like this: http://www.leupold.com/hunting-shooting ... s-35x45mm/

Nester,
That would be, and is, my choice.
Hap

Those Leupold scopes are nice, but a little pricey. If you want to try something a little more bargain priced, a BSA scope is not too bad.

http://www.bsaoptics.com/scope.aspx?productID=63

The custom shop at leupold can install 1/8, 1/4, and 1/2 inch dots. If you want a 1/8 dot, buy a plex because it is cheapest, and have them put in a dot.

nester wrote:Thanks everybody,
(Yes, I know this is not for the ISSF rules events, but we have indor competition with "any" sights, and also to have a decent scope for my "recreational" .22 rifle),

so the "best overall and most versatile" scope would be this VX-3 6.5-20x40mm EFR Target with long knobs:

That is the scope I used for a few years for smallbore prone. I liked it and did quite well with it. Then I looked through a 25X Leupold Competition FX-3 Silhouette scope with the bigger dot at a match in PA. That looked nice so I bought one and gave it a try. After my first 20 shots I swore it was light years better than the fine dot of the 6.5-20 and now that scope mostly collects dust. There are two things I liked better about the 6.5-20: the ability to focus to 50' and being able to dial down the power for standing. I rarely do either of those things and now I have a 50' adapter for my 25X to take care of the focus issue.

The only real 'issue' I have with the 6.5-20 is the fine dot that came with it. It is much more of a handicap than a help for most shooters (everybody has different eyes, so I'm not going to say all). Whenever I look through that thing now it's hard to believe I used to use such a fine dot, the big 3/8 dot in my 25X pops out and you can hold it in place. I have to look for the fine dot, one more task that I don't want while trying to shoot. Even with the big dot I can see I'm centered at 50/100 yards or 50'. I can see enough to hold on a bullet hole at 50 with no problem, when the weather turns dark I can still see, when the wind blows I'm on the mirage. It really is night and day better.

I caution anyone on going higher than around 25X for prone as I do not believe it does you any favors, and I know more serious shooters looking to down-power rather than up-power. All it does is reduce your field of view (I like to watch mirage while I shoot), reduce light transmission, and make your hold look huge which adds a lot more to the mental game. I don't see any value-add. I would wager most shooters that use super high mag scopes for smallbore prone (maybe highpower is a different story?) would score better with a lower power. I've seen more than one shooter abandon high power scopes for lower powers.

So to sum it up instead of continuing to ramble; my first choice for prone only would be the Leupold 25X Silhouette Competition. If shooting 3P, go for the 6.5-20, but I'd recommend having them put their 3/8 dot from the competition series in (I should do the same but I get lazy with those things). I'd bet your eyes, and score, would thank you!

Feel free to contact me with any questions on my thoughts!

Justin Tracy

Sightron SII Big Sky 6-24x42SIL, focuses down to 10 meters, .4 MOA dot reticle, glass at least as good as the Leupold and better than Weaver and similar mid-priced scopes. It also has a more reliable adjustment system than anything less than $1500 or so. Avoid the non-Big Sky SII models, as their glass quality isn't as good.

Justin Credible wrote:...I caution anyone on going higher than around 25X for prone as I do not believe it does you any favors, and I know more serious shooters looking to down-power rather than up-power. All it does is reduce your field of view (I like to watch mirage while I shoot), reduce light transmission, and make your hold look huge which adds a lot more to the mental game. I don't see any value-add. I would wager most shooters that use super high mag scopes for smallbore prone (maybe highpower is a different story?) would score better with a lower power. I've seen more than one shooter abandon high power scopes for lower powers. ...

Justin Tracy

I am one of those shooters who down-powered their prone scope, and Justin's description is EXACTLY what I experienced. I started with an old, made-in-Japan Tasco 6-24x44 (set to 24x for prone, of course). I liked it a lot, so I figured more was better and switched to a 36x Weaver. My scores and x-counts both dropped, and I felt very claustrophobic while shooting at 50m. In addition, finding the mirage at 50 was often a real challenge, since I usually couldn't see off the edge of the paper. I sold the Weaver at Bristol this year, dropped the Tasco back on, and watched my scores and x-counts climb right back up and keep going. I suspect that most of this is from the confidence that comes with not seeing my hold dancing like a ballerina, especially at 50 yd/m, and from being able to watch the mirage more easily.

Hope that helps! Good luck with your NRA game!
~MTN

My $0.02 worth (I will send you an invoice) is that for position a lower magnification is better. Somewhere around 15 X . For outdoor prone bigger is better.

I have used a fixed magnification Leupold at 24 x with a 50 adapter for position but would rather have had a lower magnification. Outdoors I used the 24 X at 50 yd/mt and 36 X at 100 yd.

As for variable magnification, people who know more about the physics of optics than I do have told me that a fixed magnification is more consistent and less likely to go bad.

I know I have just suggested about $3000 in scopes for my invoice price of 2 cents but what are you going to do with it, take it to your grave with you?

thanks everybody for advises.
So for now on1st e candidate is VX-3 6.5-20x40mm EFR Target (with Target Dot)
http://www.leupold.com/hunting-shooting ... fr-target/

And also I am looking at VX-3 8.5-25x50mm (30mm) Side Focus Target (with Target Dot as well)
http://www.leupold.com/hunting-shooting ... us-target/

I assume 2nd would work same or better (also, it has side focus - is it more convenient?), 50mm lens and higher maximum magnification, but about 30% more expensive.

The side focus could be nice, but a 30mm tube with a 50mm objective is going to affect the weight/balance of your rifle more than the 40mm lens. I also suspect that you're also going to want less low-end magnification, more than you're going to want more high end magnification. I'd probably go with the 6.5-20x40mm for those reasons.

nester wrote:thanks everybody for advises.
So for now on1st e candidate is VX-3 6.5-20x40mm EFR Target (with Target Dot)
http://www.leupold.com/hunting-shooting ... fr-target/

And also I am looking at VX-3 8.5-25x50mm (30mm) Side Focus Target (with Target Dot as well)
http://www.leupold.com/hunting-shooting ... us-target/

I assume 2nd would work same or better (also, it has side focus - is it more convenient?), 50mm lens and higher maximum magnification, but about 30% more expensive.

The larger objective is of little use for smallbore, it just adds weight, cost, and a slightly larger wind sail when that picks up. I think these offset any small light gain advantage. On the target range I don't think the side focus is all that useful, especially over smallbore distances. For long range hunting or "tactical" matches it's a difference story. It is more difficult to get a precise setting each time with the side focus due to the coarseness of it (there are ways around that with huge wheels, look at the field target airgun shooters) and there is little advantage of being able to adjust the focus while looking through the scope for known distance shooting. The adjustable objective allows for more subtle refinement and a more repeatable setting. I mark some of mine separate from what comes on the scope with a piece of masking tape... the factory markings can be way off but are usually close. Once you figure out where to set it for a specific distance just mark the tape and then the next time you can just dial back to the same place and be done without fiddling with a side knob.

Justin Tracy