TargetTalk

(smith m14 .38special)
I now have 125 swc, 148 wc and 158 swc's the last two from Missouri Bullets. Unfortunatly, are I have is Clays, can't find bullseye, and not enough 231 to bother with.

First issue, shooting off sandbags at 25 yds, I started by resting the barrel on the bag. Results were more pattern than group. I then tried resting my hands on the bag instead of the barrel and the goups were better but...

Anyone else find this when shooting off bags?

3.5 g of clays with the 125's show some promise, not not what I'm hoping for,

148's w/ 2.3 best five shot group was 2.5 inch,

158 w/ 2.8 put four in 2.2 inch with with the fifth a called flyer. and

a heavier charge put the 158's all over the paper.

I'm going to try to find some factory target loads to see what the gun is capable of, but it's got to do better with handloads.

Without getting some bullseye powder, where do I go from here?

thanks

If you don't have anything, why bother.

If you can't shoot, shooting over sandbags won't help. Find a Ransom Rest. There is also the possibility that the gun is not accurate. I had a S&W that absolutely would not shoot until I had it worked over.

Good luck!

"If you don't have anything, why bother. "

yeah, that's what I thought when all these shortages started. Give it up. then I reconsidered.


"
If you can't shoot, shooting over sandbags won't help"

Again Rove, you're right. send me your address and if I ever get to where I can' shoot, I'll send you the guns free of charge.

Now for everyone else, my questions were specific for the Smith. I am quite capable of shooting good groups off the bags with my autoloaders but this is my first wheel gun in way too many years of shooting.

And while I'm no where as good a shot as when I was younger, I still have my moments. and if I had access to a Ransom I would be using it.

Assuming you're planning to shoot a revolver for NRA/ISSF Center Fire matches-

a. get a box of Federal GM38A. If you're revolver won't shoot well with that load, it probably needs work. Don't rest on the barrel, let it float freely.

b. I've gotten about the same results with WST as with Bullseye.

c. For DR, I used Remington R38S5 ammunition. I don't see it on their website, so it may no longer be in production.

I shoot my own cast bullets, lee .358 148 grain WC with 3.0 gr of BE. Will hold the X ring if I do my part. It will spray Remington R38S5 all over the place
S&W 686-3 6 in barrel

dlhenry -

Do you use 38 Sp or .357 brass in your 686?

Roger

38 special trimmed to min and seated to maybe a 32nd longer than brass with a light to medium roll crimp. I use the same brass in my S&W 52

I found some Win 148 hbwc match loads and a pound of WST.

At 25 yds off the bags the factory ammo shot into 1.2 inch including the called bad shot. so the gun is capable with at least one load.

But results with 148 dewc and 158 swc and WST are still bad. I'm going to try a more comprehensive test in .2g increments and also run the same loads thru an old model 10 just to see what happens.

Any tips on seating depth and crimp for the 148 dewc?

thanks

With WST, using the HBWC, start at 2.8 and end at 3.4 grains. Double ended WCs, start at 2.6 and work up to 3.4, looking at case extraction as the key for pressure. I seat either bullet flush with the case mouth and just use enought crimp to keep the bullet in the case. A seperate taper crimp die or one of the new Profile crimp dies from LEE is great. With the taper crimp die, I never had to trim.

Remember YMMV, each gun is Different.

Good luck.

A little bit of measuring might be helpful in shooting Lead bullets. Do you know what your cylinder throat diameters are? I measure these with a plug gauge. I recently measured the throats on a new Model 29 cylinder, finding that the largest pin gauge that would pass through the throats was a .428"! Thankfully, all of the throats measured the same. This is a bit smaller than the barrel groove diameter, not the condition I would like for Lead bullets.

It would be good to know your barrel groove diameter. You would probably like it to be slightly smaller than your cylinder throat diameter. I measure this by slugging. The action of threading the rear of the barrel may cause that portion of the barrel just ahead of the forcing cone to be smaller than the rest of the barrel, resulting in Leading just beyond the tight area.

A few threads that have impressed me:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthr ... r-accuracy
http://www.lasc.us/FryxellCrackShot.htm
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthr ... a-Model-27
http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_6-6-3_CastHandgun.htm
http://www.castbulletassoc.org/forum/vi ... forum_id=4

I took the gun back to where I bought it and they sent it to their smith. If they don't find the problem and correct it I will ask for my money back. I'll post the results when I get it back.

A common problem with many revolvers is that the cylinder throats are smaller than the bore diameter. That's the problem I had with my S&W. I had the cylinder throats enlarged and got excellent accuracy.

Another common problem with S&W and Ruger is the the barrel is constricted where it is screwed into the frame. This is cured by fire lapping. Fire lapping is also helpful with inaccurate .22s.

Remington WCs are very fat. Give them a try. Roll crimping is best.

Late viewer of this topic very curious about what happens. I recently purchased K38 14-4 which has a terrific reputation in the revolver community. I believe this is what the OP has.

I too have not achieved the level of accuracy I expected but am blaming my ammo for now. I have 148gr DEWC (this is a bevel based bullet at both ends which is not available at Missouri Bullet as far as I know). The Double ended WC is supposed to be almost as good as the 148gr HBWC.

3.0 gr Red Dot was recommended to me which I have tried, as well as 3.0 gr VV N320 which seems a bit better. I have not sunk the bullet flush with the case mouth but have read about others doing so. I have only the beveled portion protruding and a light roll crimp which just barely removes the flare.

I have not set the 14-4 in my Hyskore rest yet but offhand tells me all is not optimal. I was planning on shortening my round and trying a hair more crimp. Perhaps as is recommended slugging my barrel is wise and check the cylinder diameter while I'm at it.

I also bought a S&W 45acp model 1955 25-2. Another target revolver with a good reputation. The cylinders are oversized and my help from other forums tells me that the older SD&W's are oversized by reputation. Modern Rugers are undersized cylinders by reputation and I have one of those too.

Missouri bullet has a 148 gr DEWC-BB (which, as far as I can tell means "Bevel Base") in both .357 and .358 diameters and with or without "Hi-Tek 2-Extreme Coating". I load mine (more or less) flush with the case mouth with slight taper crimp but I shoot .38's mostly through a M 52.

Before you blame the ammo, tho', I would slug the bore and slug (or pin gage) each individual chamber throat. Also, you should fire a test group of each chamber individually. Measuring variances in dimension won't necessarily tell you what the problem is; there may be a variation in lockup alignment that is contributing to your unsatisfying groups.

Roger

You really need to try some Remington 148gr HBWC bullets. I never could get anything near their accuracy with any beveled double base bullet.

Using HBWC and 38spl.

max load is 2.9 gn wst

Most accurate load for 60 years SL and LL is 2.7gns bullseye and 2.7 gns Wst i find is a little better in terms of recoil and soot.

Some old timers use 2.5 .6 for SL but you have to have really good follow through because the bullet is really slow.

Greater than 2.8 will lead hbswc. 2.9 3.0 is good for cast wc which are harder. Greater than 3.2 is getting close to p+ and you don't want to run p+ through a model 14.

I would also check the cone cylnders and barrels for leading because the will open up your groups.

My 14 will put all the bullets in the same hole at 25 yards from a rest.

I took it back where I got it and had it sent to a gunsmith under warranty. So what I got back is;

they reamed the forcing cone, straightened the yoke and timed it.

They supplied test targets which showed two decent groups with Win 148 match, two good groups and one great group with Federal 148's. A quick mix of my handloads show that it will easily shoot 10 ring at 25 yards, but one chamber that consistently shoots out.

So now I am going to do some serious testing using the same chamber for every shot.

richrd;

It is not uncommon to have one cylinder in a revolver to shoot out of the group.
Do some testing to isolate THAT cylinder and mark it some way.
You are only going to shoot 5 shots at a time so no worries.

Clarence