TargetTalk

Match this past Saturday.

Shooting pretty well for me (89, 87, 88 on SF, 98 TF and RF on the NMC. 1st target of timed fire match my scorer tells me there is only 9 holes. I look at the target and can not find anything that looks like a double. I study each of the 9 holes and find nothing that looks like it could be a double.

Shooting .22.

7 holes in the ten ring, 2 in the nine ring.

I'm positive I had ten good shots. Neither target adjacent to mine has missing shots or extra holes.

I'm not going to win the match but I am on track for a personal best. I do not want to just give up the 9 or 10 points.

What would you do?

Ask for the referee, maybe then a Jury.

But, realistically just eat it; you signed the score card. You'll do better next time.

If there is no referee or jury because the match is not registered,
I would ask the match director to convene a jury to decide.
Not signing the card is not the answer.
You may not get the points with a jury, but it is a lot fairer.
I know how you feel, it's tough to lose 10 points, especially when the score would be a 98 and you are sure you had 10 good shots.

Personally, I would score this as a 88, because that is what the score is. I am sure the scorer did not want to subtract ten points but he scored it after a lot of personal reflection. He honestly feels you got a 88 on that target.

with that being said, the reason that I would score that as a 88 is that we are in competition with ourselves and if I cannot be honest with myself then my personal integrity is flushed down the toilet. When I find a discrepancy in the score, I point it out to the scorekeeper, even if it shaves points off my score.

After more years then I care to remember, I have found that not only do I have a respectable rating as a bullseye shooter, I have a pretty damn good reputation as well. Take it from me, five years down the road it aint going to matter if it was a 88 or a 98.

Regards,
Cranky

I had no beef with the scorer. He scored what he saw - as he should.

Almost invisible doubles, and sometimes a triple in the middle of a visible double happen more often than you think.
I generally assume that when someone is reliably shooting in the 90s that they probably didn't miss, and look hard for evidence of a larger hole. We have all lost points this way.

I view almost every match as practice, and the scoring is something I cant control. If this were Camp Perry, I would certainly challenge. Ten points can make a huge difference in where you end up with a hundred people in your class.
At a local match, let it go, and remember, if the shooter that scored you is a regular, what goes around, comes around.

On decent quality card targets the taper gauges sold by the ISSF are a reliable way of finding doubles.

David Levene wrote:On decent quality card targets the taper gauges sold by the ISSF are a reliable way of finding doubles.

These are not legal in conventional pistol in the US. The ref can plug a single hole for value, but cannot plug doubles.
They may very well use a gauge such as this at Camp Perry, behind the line, when there is a challenge, but the competitors, and the ref cannot do it on the line.

Isabel1130 wrote:

David Levene wrote:On decent quality card targets the taper gauges sold by the ISSF are a reliable way of finding doubles.

These are not legal in conventional pistol in the US. The ref can plug a single hole for value, but cannot plug doubles.

That's a shame.

Another reliable way of finding doubles on card targets is to use a 30X pocket microscope.

On a single shot there will be target fibres around the edge of the hole. On a double those fibres will not be there.

David Levene wrote:

Isabel1130 wrote:

David Levene wrote:On decent quality card targets the taper gauges sold by the ISSF are a reliable way of finding doubles.

These are not legal in conventional pistol in the US. The ref can plug a single hole for value, but cannot plug doubles.

That's a shame.

Another reliable way of finding doubles on card targets is to use a 30X pocket microscope.

On a single shot there will be target fibres around the edge of the hole. On a double those fibres will not be there.

I have never seen one. We do have some pocket gauges that are optical, but they don't have anywhere close to that degree of magnification.

Who makes them? Where can one be purchased?

At most matches we are using paper targets stapled over cardboard backing. Once thirty shots or so have been fired into the black, you are usually only cutting paper.

At the nationals, they paste the targets onto the cardboard, and you use a new target for each ten rounds. This makes them easier to score.

Isabel1130 wrote:

David Levene wrote:

Isabel1130 wrote:

David Levene wrote:On decent quality card targets the taper gauges sold by the ISSF are a reliable way of finding doubles.

These are not legal in conventional pistol in the US. The ref can plug a single hole for value, but cannot plug doubles.

That's a shame.

Another reliable way of finding doubles on card targets is to use a 30X pocket microscope.

On a single shot there will be target fibres around the edge of the hole. On a double those fibres will not be there.

I have never seen one. We do have some pocket gauges that are optical, but they don't have anywhere close to that degree of magnification.

Who makes them? Where can one be purchased?

I use one like this. As I said, they work fine on card targets, paper might be a problem.

ScottSimmonds wrote:
7 holes in the ten ring, 2 in the nine ring.

I'm positive I had ten good shots. Neither target adjacent to mine has missing shots or extra holes.
I do not want to just give up the 9 or 10 points.

What would you do?

I would refer to Rule 16.1 Challenges - "When a competitor feels that a shot fired has been improperly evaluated or scored the scoring may be challenged. Such challenge must be made immediately upon announcement of the score. No challenge will be accepted after the target has been handled by the shooter or removed from the range."

GOVTMODEL wrote:

ScottSimmonds wrote:
7 holes in the ten ring, 2 in the nine ring.

I'm positive I had ten good shots. Neither target adjacent to mine has missing shots or extra holes.
I do not want to just give up the 9 or 10 points.

What would you do?

I would refer to Rule 16.1 Challenges - "When a competitor feels that a shot fired has been improperly evaluated or scored the scoring may be challenged. Such challenge must be made immediately upon announcement of the score. No challenge will be accepted after the target has been handled by the shooter or removed from the range."

Finally, the correct answer. When all else fails, read the rule book.

Here's what I did:

I asked for a plug on one hole thinking the scorer might see something with the plug in (this was a wrong move as the issue was not over points but number of holes). Fail.

I scuffed at the dirt and went to the bench to shoot the 3d and 4th string. Shot a 99-6x.

Here's what I'll do in the future...

If I want/need the points (Im shooting well - moving to a personal best - in contention for the match) I will challenge the target.

At worse, it costs me the challenge fee. At best, the jury sees the target differently.

The above is why I titled this thread as I did. I'm not very quick on my feet. Match experience helps me learn what to do next time.

Now I have a personal match strategy for this issue. Learning all the time.

Here are some of my other "Match Rules"

-Never take ear protection to the target - left them down range once in a match.

-Always take the refire.

-After getting a refire in a match always rack the slide on a jam to try to clear the problem.

-Set up my gun box in the same way all the time.

-Always have extra staples and pasters in my pocket - scoring template too.

-Number my magazines and rotate them during the match. Stop using the magazine that was in the gun when a jam occurs in a match.

-Clean the gun the weekend before a match. Shoot at least once before the match.

-During a match if I think about adjusting my sights I do it then forget it. The thought in my head that I might need a sight adjustment means I need a sight adjustment.

What other match tactics do people use?

After driving 45 miles to a match and discovering I had left my ammunition in the driveway in front of my house, I (a) prepared a check list of what to put in the car, checking things off AFTER they were in the car, and (b)packed the car the night prior, and (c) reviewed the check list before departing.

One item is currency in the appropriate denomination for challenge fees. It's a pain for everyone involved when the challenge fee is $2 and the competitor only has a $20.

Lots of good suggestions here, and your match tactics sometimes have to vary a little from range to range.


Some additional suggestions.

Always mark your stapler so you can easily identify it.
Bring two loaded staplers to the match so if the person next to you doesn't have one, you can loan him a dedicated one for the entire 2700.

I find it really distracting to be constantly looking for my stapler when someone else has used it.

Double plug, by wearing both ear plugs and head phones. That way if you get distracted, you will be more likely not to be completely bare when the noise starts.

Have a dedicated alibi magazine. Load it, mark it, and put it in a place where you can reach it, but away from your regular magazines, so you are not reloading a magazine in a hurry to shoot the alibi.

Keep a scoring overlay either in your wallet or in a pocket taped to the back of your scoring clipboard.

If you are shooting a match, where you have to move your box to the short line, pre-load your first two sustained fire magazines, put them in your pocket, and then set them on the forward bench, so you don't spend time hunting them in your gun box.


Eat at least an hour before you shoot. Being high protein low carb snacks to the match like nuts, jerky, or hardboiled eggs, and cheese. No sugar, artificial sweeteners, or caffeinated beverages. (The older I get, the more helpful I find this)

Really like the 2nd stapler suggestion. Add extra pens to the list. The people near me seem to always need pens.

I put a can of tuna in a tupperware container and bring a plastic fork. I nibble that through the match. I find it helps me to stay fueled. I also have a protein shake in my cooler. I stay away from sugar and carbs at lunch.

Ditto the "as I get older" thought.

I attached an Altoids box to my clipboard. It contains staples, pasters, and four one-dollar bills. I also have my scoring template attached and an extra pen on the clipboard.


S

As a long time shooter and Match Director, I would like to weigh in now.

(1) If you don't agree with the score, please challenge the target. Most matches will have another target ready to replace the one sent in for challenge. Don't worry about it.
(2) Sometimes there are true doubles, luck of the draw.
(3) A referee can use about anything to help determing the score. The device in question is commonly called a "carrot" because it looks like one. It it generally only seen at Perry and other places where the cardboard is relatively new. There are very few around and to the best of my knowledge they are currently custom made. Mine is not for sale.
(4) A magnifying device and an overlay will generally allow a referee to determine .22 doubles. It's generally just a matter of comparing holes.
(5) The refreee will score the entire target. Remember that at Perry when the scorer may have called that other close shot in, rather than out, and you get a entirely different score back from the refree.
(6) We can't plug holes for score until any doubles or misses are identified and marked or accepted by the shooter.
(7) Competitors cannot use plug type scoring devices. Call for plug or challenge. See item 6 if there are less than 10 holes on the target and you ask for a plug.
(8) Take your time as needed, have fun.
(9) Remember sometimes the breaks go your way, sometimes they don't.

Thanks for the opportunity to post.

Cecil

CR10X wrote:A referee can use about anything to help determing the score. The device in question is commonly called a "carrot" because it looks like one. It it generally only seen at Perry and other places where the cardboard is relatively new. There are very few around and to the best of my knowledge they are currently custom made.

See the gauges section of the ISSF shop.

They do 2 sizes; air & .22 and .38. All you need to add is a short length of cotton thread (to lower the taper into the hole with equal force).

David Levene wrote:

CR10X wrote:A referee can use about anything to help determing the score. The device in question is commonly called a "carrot" because it looks like one. It it generally only seen at Perry and other places where the cardboard is relatively new. There are very few around and to the best of my knowledge they are currently custom made.

See the gauges section of the ISSF shop.

They do 2 sizes; air & .22 and .38. All you need to add is a short length of cotton thread (to lower the taper into the hole with equal force).

An 'exercise' I sometimes give Judges-in-training is to use a carrot gauge on a clean hole, then the suspected double - THEN check the other 7 holes...
If the carrot gauge is good enough to say there is a double, if some of the other holes give a similar reading, did the shooter fire too many shots on the target?

Some comments:
- over the decades I have looked at lots of targets (+10000 in the last week) and seen a few doubles
- even if the two shots are only 0.5mm apart, the evidence is there. Closer than that it gets tricky.
- over the same period I have seen only one perfect double. The second shot only pulled the paper fibres around the first hole and it looked as if a small spider had started to weave a web
- I suspect a lot more doubles are given than are shot.