TargetTalk

So without going down a long list of have done, and considering to do's.

I'm just going to state an issue of mine that i am trying to correct. I know what I want but not sure how to attain this. and it became more noticeable during the Western Wildcats 6400. a challenging 4 day shoot.

Its my wrist.
In the pictures I have attached you will be able to see that it is not as straight as I would like it or how it would be "ideal". What I think is happening is the tension of the sling is pulling my joint inward, below my wrist, causing it to be twisted and uncomfortable after a long match.

Back Story,
I have had this issue for a while but either with training or minor corrections i have been able to reduce the pressure.

thoughts?

probably irreverent but I have also attached a Scatt file of the session in progress.

Sincerely,
Cameron Keating

Hi Cameron
Yes, your wrist does have a large twist the wrong way. It can cause a lot of pain in the wrist joint, esp on the inside (little finger side). Sometimes it can be the sling adjusted too tight.
I recommend offsetting your handstop to the left. I use a Gemini handstop with an offset to the left. That way it lets the front of the hand rotate to the left and helps straightens the wrist. Also try and get the stock to almost sit on the meat of the thumb too, this helps remove the kink in your wrist.
Nice hold, most of the shots are very good. You have some good triggering too (except #18). Put the F-coefficient up to 35-40 so you get a reasonable idea of the triggering. Keep working at it, it does take time to perfect.
Cheers
Martin

Cameron,

much as Martin said, can you move your handstop to the left (it looks to be a MEC which has some offset facility)?

The alternative is not to locate the stop in the thumb V. Get your wrist straight, so the stock bears on the heel of your hand, not the palm as it does in the photos, and let the stop press further up nearer your knuckle.

You question whether your sling being too tight is the culprit. It's difficult to see in the photos, but your shoulders don't quite look level. So yes, your sling could be a little tight, or the butt could be a tad too long, or the handstop a tad too far forwards.

If the height of your position feels good, I'd move the handstop of butt, and only alter the sling if you want to be a little lower.

Martin H wrote:Also try and get the stock to almost sit on the meat of the thumb too, this helps remove the kink in your wrist.

Hi Cameron, Martin is spot on here.

The rifle is sitting too far across the palm of the hand and all the downforce is going on the outside of the wrist. That's going to hurt and eventually do damage to the joint.


The rifle is better placed if it's over the center of the wrist like this:

That way the weight all goes directly onto the center of the wrist. I find the best time to do this is when I've strapped the sling in and have located it across the right part of the wrist - before I plant my left elbow.

You may find that your cant alters a bit.

It also helps if you can get the web of the hand and forefinger away from the stock as you're settling down to avoid too much weight being taken by the front of the hand which is also painful.

Good luck.
Ken.

From the colour of your thumb you must be in agony by the end of the shoot!

It looks to me as you need to move the handstop forward a small amount (around 5mm). There isn't enough room for your arm to fit under the rifle without forcing the wrist back. You should be able to do this without changing the sling length or your position dropping. Once you can keep the wrist straight then you can play around with offset to the left, as others have mentioned, to change the pressure point on the palm/wrist. I use the older large anschutz handstop adjusted all the way to the left.

Good luck.

Well spotted on the thumb, that looks painful.

Moving the handstop forwards would give more space, that hadn't occured to me. I think the sling would certainly need to be made longer then.

Thank you,
I should clarify that I am using a Mec Hand-stop and it is adjusted Full left. A couple nights ago I also tried a Standard Rifle Hand-stop "Fat Tall and Round" sililar to this one below with no difference.
http://www.champchoice.com/store/Main.a ... tem=CC2525

Here is a Question on the Mec Handstop, their are two points to connect the sling, would those make a difference? From where i am I "Think" my issue is not the Position of the hand-stop but rather where the sling contacts my arm, if i could move it higher over the wrist joint i believe that would reduce my issue.

I will look into the Gemini Hand-stop and see what that could offer. My Mec stop is having issues with its sling connector anyways.[/code]

One issue with moving the handstop forward i have is, wouldnt that lower my arm position closer to the 30* rule? I am pushing that as i am. I will move forward a bit further and see what happens as an experiment.

thanks again

Cameron,

before you go buying a new handstop I'd look at making some small adjustments to the sling and handstop. These may be enough and would save a fair bit of cash.

I don't think the sling fixing point is the problem. My view (and it's worth what you're paying) is that your current sling length/ handstop position are not letting you straighten your wrist. This may be why the other handstop made little difference. Creating a little more slack in the sling would let you straighten up, so the rifle sits on the heel (as shown in Ken's excellent photos).

Moving the handstop fowards would lower your position slightly, but you don't look too low as is. A few mm, and one or two notches on your sling, would be enough. Alternatively, letting the sling out by a notch, or moving the handstop back by a few mm (and leaving the sling alone), could do the trick.

Oh I didn't intend for that to sound like I was going to just buy a different handstop, if the issue exists with three it is likely going to be there with the forth. Actually I think I've tried/ borrows closer to 5-6 handstops.

Anyways yes I am going to try moving the handstop forward more. Like I mentioned earlier I did move it .5cm the other night and it made little to no improvements. But I am going to have to shoot a full corse to really have an idea of what a change might be worth. More shots the better.

I have some other changes I might try also.

Sincerely,
Cameron

Cameron,

stupid question, but did you lengthen the sling when you moved the handstop? I may be wrong, but moving just the handstop would make the issue worse, not better.

Good luck in find the right set up.

not a stupid question at all.

I moved the hand-stop forward and left the sling tighter. I have lengthened the sling today and left the stop where it was.

I actually did an experiment with 10 shot groups "Focused on how I felt and shot execution" at a couple different sling tensions, on both attachment points. I think I have settled on a solution but will need to have pictures taken again to have a better view.

I may end up moving the stop back and adding to my LOP. When I have new photos I will share for input.

Sincerely,
Cameron Keating

From the pictures I would definitely increase the LOP, it seems uncomfortable to scrunch that much, I just fiddled with my LOP and it solidified my position a great deal (even cleaned my first card in competition (even better since my prone had been dragging down around my kneeling scores for a month)). But yes Play with your length of pull, if you feel any sort of strain to reach the plate it should be adjusted.

bpscCheney wrote:From the pictures I would definitely increase the LOP, it seems uncomfortable to scrunch that much, I just fiddled with my LOP and it solidified my position a great deal (even cleaned my first card in competition (even better since my prone had been dragging down around my kneeling scores for a month)). But yes Play with your length of pull, if you feel any sort of strain to reach the plate it should be adjusted.

My position doesnt feel scrunched, I was only adding LOP to give distance between the rear sight and my eye it also helped to gain better position on the cheek rest, I only added 5mm. Anyways I am curious by what you mean to reach the plate? that's not a phrase I have heard before. do you mean the butt-plate?

Tim,
I think you nailed it. the biggest problem I may have is that I like a really tight sling. loosing it up seems to be better on the wrist. after a couple days ill have a friend take pictures again to see how it goes. As my tweaks sit right now it feels just as steady.

Cameron,

yeah, just moving the stop forwards, wouldn't help your hand. There would be even more rifle to fit in, and mre tension on the sling. I guess the back of your left arm was feeling it too?

To me you don't look scrunched because the LOP is too short, more because the sling is too tight so your right shoulder is out of alignment.

Just letting out the sling may be enough, but I wouldn't be surprised if the handstop and/or LOP also need a tiny tweak. Your sling looks to have quite fine adjustment (it's US copy of the Thune UIT 1 am I right?), which helps. You might even need to change the buttplate height.

To me, (didn't read the comments to keep bias out) Your LOP is way too short, and something looks wrong with your left hand. But I cant tell whats wrong exactly.
When I shoot prone my five fingers get numb or blue, but your thumb seems to get all the blue. Not good! Your fingers should get blue at the same time, meaning the rifle is sitting on your hand flat. If it's angled, (like I think it is) it will turn your thumb more blue.
Looks like you have a SCATT. Try different things and see what works for you.

EDIT: Also make sure your rifle is sitting in your shoulder firm so it doesn't twist when shooting.
I just shot a precision air match and there was a dude next to me, his butt plate only contacted his shoulder at the top and was free at the bottom. And it was tilting all over the place. He was a wreck prone! He kept getting frustrated when all his shots went to the right of the bull....
Why he didn't adjust the butt plate or his sights was beyond me....

Thedrifter wrote:My position doesnt feel scrunched, I was only adding LOP to give distance between the rear sight and my eye it also helped to gain better position on the cheek rest, I only added 5mm. Anyways I am curious by what you mean to reach the plate? that's not a phrase I have heard before. do you mean the butt-plate?

In my experience when the LOP is too short the shooter tries to reach the buttplate with their shoulder. When I was talking with the AMU they recommended an increase in LOP to relieve shoulder tension that I was getting in prone and my shoulder looked similar to yours so I wondered if that could be part of your problem. Just a suggestion :)

Some crazy ideas...

Ideas for the left hand. Kenny B has the right idea. Get the fore end onto the base of the thumb as in his picture. You can straighten the hand out a bit then.

Handstop. It seems there are lots (?) of folk who like to push the webbing between the thumb and hand into the handstop. When you incorporate this with your tight sling then you are bound to create enormous pressures on the left hand.

An exercise. Bring the handstop back about 100mm (4 inches). Insert the rifle and then let it rest on the sling as you would normally. Feel how little pressure there is on the left hand?? This is because the shoulder is not exerting force down the rifle and thus onto the sling. More comment later.

Pull. Crazy word for it isn't it. Very old term too!! The reason the "pull" looks too short is that the right shoulder is pushed so far back. This brings the sights way back along with the right hand. This is also a consequence of having quite a straight position. With this the rifle seems to have to go back with the shoulder so that the eyes can at least get close to the sights. It may be useful to mount the rifle with no sling, hold it in the most comfortable position taking in to account right elbow, shoulders squaring up, right elbow moving forward, left hand on the fore end. Once it feels "'right", get someone to move the handstop to the hand, adjust the sling and attempt to end up in that same "comfortable position".

Going back to the "loose sling" above. If the handstop is now moved out a bit at a time then there will be a spot where enough friction is exerted by the buttplate for it to remain in the shoulder. A good curved buttplate that snuggles onto the shoulder helps in this!! I suggest you try shooting with this "lack of tension".

Handstop. Is there a possible way to rid the place of the handstop? Yes there is. Use the sling. Try buckling into the sling close to the fore end and place the hand into the sling with about 15 to 20mm gap and grip the fore end while you mount the rifle. Then when the sling tension comes on and the rifle is in the shoulder, release the grip of the forend. You will find the left hand gest jammed between the sling and the fore end. And no pressure on the webbing of the hand!.

Give them a try......

Ross,

those ideas don't seem too crazy. I agree about the butt length appearing too short becuase the shoulder is pushed back by excess sling tension.

I'm not sure though that Cameron has enough room to move his hand back 4in without the trigger guard getting in the way. But moving the handstop back would reduce sling tension so the wrist can straighten, and the shoulder can come forwards to a natural position. The whole position would raise up a little too, so the sling gets more leverage from the arm.

I think Cameron has a Gemini butt, so if it's properly set up (and I have seen some odd arrangements), it should fit the shoulder very well.

Hi there
I purchased a Gemini handstop after it being suggested to me by Martin H and it is definitely very very good.It has a lot of offset available.Far more than anything else I had ever used.Worth trying for sure!

All the best