Conversion 22 Barrel for Bullseye

chiltech500 · Post by **chiltech500** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:26 pm

I am new to a lot of things related to Bullseye competition and reading threads here among other things.

Do Bullsye shooters on a budget ever use the same 45 lower for a 22 conversion and then switch over to 45?

New question, has anyone heard of 22 conversions for a 9mm 1911 like the Springfield?

Thanks.

(I have a lot of free time at work, much more than at home, but my company has screening for certain words that doesn't allow me access to a lot of sites I would love to read. So if it seems I ask questions that would be easily looked up, that's why.)

dronning · Post by **dronning** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:43 pm

Look at the Nelson Custom G u n s ( I wasn't sure the G word would get through to you). It is a Marvel designed conversion for the 1911. It will work with the 9MM 1911 lower. Very accurate and takes less than 30 seconds to change over.

Dave

GunRunner · Post by **GunRunner** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:39 pm

The nelson is better than the marvels, but these two are the best for bullseye. I just ordered a nelson, after owning 4 marvels over the years.

Jon Eulette · Post by **Jon Eulette** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:38 pm

What are you basing the Nelson is better than the Marvel? Something concrete.
Thanks
Jon

dronning · Post by **dronning** » Sat Mar 29, 2014 2:37 am

Jon Eulette wrote:What are you basing the Nelson is better than the Marvel? Something concrete.
Thanks
Jon

The conversion Nelson Custom Guns is producing is Bob Marvels most current design (Marvel Custom Pro II) and has several refinements. The machine work is being done by McMillan Machine Co and the fit and finish on the Nelson is impeccable as expected. McMillan Machine Co rifles and actions are works of art.

I have both and I would rank the Nelson a definite step up.

They both will hold the X ring at 50yards so you can't go wrong either way.

In a rest my Nelson shoots a smaller group than my Unit 1, but I also have a friend that has a Unit 1 that will hold a tighter group than any Euro gun.

GunRunner · Post by **GunRunner** » Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:03 am

Jon Eulette wrote:What are you basing the Nelson is better than the Marvel? Something concrete.
Thanks
Jon

As said, Bob improved on his original design which is since 2003 marvel precision, better machining better silicon steel springs, better designed mags. dry fire safe which marvels are not, plus the nelsons are said to run without the issues marvels are known for, stovepipe rounds and falure to feed if not tuned perfectly. They tested a nelson put on a factory gun with no modification, then ran 100 rounds of 10 different kinds of 22 ammo ranging from aguila sub sonic, cci standard, several types of eley and two types of federal and others without a hitch. They made a video that Larry Nelson is going to upload to youtube soon showing it. Accuracy reports are on par with any marvel P. unit. I just ordered one, once I get it built I will post my report as to how it preforms. My issue with marvels and I built 4 of them over the past 15 years and all were built on premium dedicated frames with the best parts was although they were accurate I could get close but never achieve 100% reliability and I detest alibis. So if the nelson lives up to the reviews ive read and tests ive seen I will be very happy.

chiltech500 · Post by **chiltech500** » Sat Mar 29, 2014 12:40 pm

Thanks gents, that's what I wanted to hear.

New question, seems to have been answered in your posts above, but here goes: Accuracy in these conversions is acceptable enough to use said conversion for shooting 22 in competition?

dronning · Post by **dronning** » Sat Mar 29, 2014 2:13 pm

chiltech500 wrote:Thanks gents, that's what I wanted to hear.

New question, seems to have been answered in your posts above, but here goes: Accuracy in these conversions is acceptable enough to use said conversion for shooting 22 in competition?

Yes, absolutely a great choice for Bullseye Competition, no hesitation. I have put nearly 1,000 rounds through my new Nelson in a little over a week with no issues.

I shoot a Les Baer wad gun (45) and have the Nelson on a dedicated Les Baer lower (my old carry gun) which I updated with 2.25lb short roll trigger.

The Nelson has a heavier optic rail than the Marvel did so it feels almost like my wad gun. I really love this combo.

jackh · Post by **jackh** » Sat Mar 29, 2014 2:24 pm

["Accuracy in these conversions is acceptable enough to use said conversion for shooting 22 in competition?"]

Yes.

Of the three brands, only the Advantage Arms barrel and GreenTag ammo did not perform well. That was an ammo issue with the regular AA barrel. Not the Bob Marvel barrel in the Custom Pro.

1. Marvel Precision,
2. Advantage Arms, and Bob Marvel Custom Pro,
3. Nelson, Nighthawk, and BobMarvel Custom Pro II

The Nelson based units have given me NO JAMS. Marvel Precision the most, and AA based units in between. We are not talking a lot of jams though.

Jon Eulette · Post by **Jon Eulette** » Sat Mar 29, 2014 2:48 pm

What size groups are you getting with Nelson at 50 yards?

CR10X · Post by **CR10X** » Sun Mar 30, 2014 7:15 am

Jon:
I've noticed that after a few targets with a new gun, most people tend to eventually get back to same size groups they were shooting with the old one! :-D

dronning · Post by **dronning** » Sun Mar 30, 2014 7:28 am

Jon Eulette wrote:What size groups are you getting with Nelson at 50 yards?

I hesitate posting this because using a ransom is the only way to get consistent results - if you know what your doing.

50 yards, 5 10 shot groups off sand bags and using a pistol scope were all under 1" with the smallest being .55" and largest being .95. I am confident it is plenty accurate. 99.9999% odds that size variation was due to operator :)

Ammo Wolf Match Extra 'cause that's all I have.

Trooperjake · Post by **Trooperjake** » Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:29 am

Forget about accuracy, all the top of line units are X ring accurate, what you are looking for is reliability. We don't shoot matches with Ransom Rests.
My Marvel will shoot out the X ring with STD CCI.
I have both a Marvel Precision Unit one and an Advantage Arms model.
The Marvel is pre lock back models.
The Advantage as a back up, has not had one alibi. It's the lock back unit.
The Marvel broke a firing pin and I had to replace the plastic mags for the GSG German steel mags.
No problem with the GSG's.
I have no personal knowledge of the Nelson or other units.

Jon Eulette · Post by **Jon Eulette** » Sun Mar 30, 2014 12:54 pm

Guys,
The reason I'm asking for group sizes is because I'm a pistolsmith. I have to be able to quantify results. The use of ransom rest with .22 caliber is the easiest to do with minimal errors compared to the .45 because of recoil. Just trying to get hard numbers for reference.I haven't shot a Nelson yet, but have handled one. It's a very nice unit. I've talked to Larry Nelson on the phone for about 4 hrs combined. If someone is going to claim it's better, I'm just asking for solid concrete facts over opinion based on feeling good. I shoot an older Marvel and it runs perfectly; because I build them. And yes they have their flaws. I know the Nelson is redesigned and I think much improved in comparison. But my Marvel holds 1/2 with almost all the ammo I shoot. There isn't a high master out there who will shoot a pistol that isn't shooting at the highest level of accuracy. But typically proven in a ransom rest; yes I know that's different than from the hand. I've been doing the BE and pistolsmith in game since 1988, just doing my homework.
Jon

CR10X · Post by **CR10X** » Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:21 pm

Well, Jon, my first post was in jest but based lots of observations of many shooters with sub 1 inch guns......

However, if you want to get serious about it then here is my observation on the .22 overall. Once you test a gun and start getting total groups at an inch or less at 50, it seems to becomes an ammo race, not an equipment race. Well above an inch with all ammo, and its an equipment race. Seems to follow for rifles as well at 100 yards.

Of course each gun could benefit from tweaking the chamber, muzzle, springs or magazine and getting the groups a little smaller. But sometimes that next lot of .22 just seems to take it all away...

Just my observation after chasing .22 groups for many years. To each his own.

Cecil

jackh · Post by **jackh** » Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:08 pm

Most of this is repeat. I will Ransom three Nelsons in the near future when weather and time allow.

Three early Marvel Precision test targets for units and barrels I had were .4xx-.6xx. These older units are all sold. My remaining MP steel locker test tag is .614/Eley Match. Like I am going the shoot Eley Match. I remember one time in at a Sectional and a make-up gallery league 900, I shot 840 something with Eley in the sectional. Then an hour later shot the same MP (one of the early units) with Aguila and scored 860 something.

Bob Marvel Advantage Arms barrels I have with test tags showing:
.568 BM Custom Pro #10, Wolf ammo
.430 barrel #012 with Eley
.560 barrel #006 with Wolf
A BMAA unit is the only gun with which I ever cleaned both TF targets, 200/200 in a gallery match

Bob Marvel CPII (Nelson base) test tag .480 (ammo not listed)
From arm rest the Nighthawk and Nelson units both compete with the BM CPII ie from my armrest I can not tell a difference(all Nelson based units )

And I am quite confident in my arm rest ability.

I have never been able to duplicate any test tag groups in the club Ransom which Roddy says has seen better days.
One series of test with regular Advantage Arms barrels from the club Ransom shot +/-1" with Eley and 1.5 ish with Aguila level ammo, just like AA says they should . But there was my AA test with Green Tag at 4"-5" (repeat tested with both Eley at 1" and GT at 4-5")

Jerry Keefer · Post by **Jerry Keefer** » Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:39 am

Jon Eulette wrote:Guys,
The reason I'm asking for group sizes is because I'm a pistolsmith. I have to be able to quantify results. The use of ransom rest with .22 caliber is the easiest to do with minimal errors compared to the .45 because of recoil. Just trying to get hard numbers for reference.I haven't shot a Nelson yet, but have handled one. It's a very nice unit. I've talked to Larry Nelson on the phone for about 4 hrs combined. If someone is going to claim it's better, I'm just asking for solid concrete facts over opinion based on feeling good. I shoot an older Marvel and it runs perfectly; because I build them. And yes they have their flaws. I know the Nelson is redesigned and I think much improved in comparison. But my Marvel holds 1/2 with almost all the ammo I shoot. [b]There isn't a high master out there who will shoot a pistol that isn't shooting at the highest level of accuracy.[/b] But typically proven in a ransom rest; yes I know that's different than from the hand. I've been doing the BE and pistolsmith in game since 1988, just doing my homework.
Jon

YES...!!AND, the top HM's know the difference after one slow fire magazine...:) Been watching this thread with some interest. I really enjoyed .22 work. It's a study unto itself. I have done an enormous amount of work over the years on the conversions..getting into the .500 inch grouping is not as easy as the advertisements lead one to believe. I really have reservations to claims that a particular gun will shoot awesome groups with any ammo... I have never seen it. Jon.. I have rebarreled countless Marvels, AA's and Karts with Lothar Walther blanks. I can't say enough about the quality and performance of those blanks.. What I really like,, is the blank OD is .635, so a .010 OD truing cut finishes to the .625 of most of the conversions.
You can purchase liner blanks at .400 OD which is ideal for the S&W 41. Very little stress is imparted to the blank with such a small reduction in diameter. And their 1.020 OD is perfect for the High Standards.. 8 lands and grooves opposed to most conversions 6 lands and grooves.
Getting back to group size.. The top shooters realize that as a shooter fatigues, hold and trigger break deteriorates. The tighter a gun groups, the less error is registered on the target from shooter mistakes.
Hope all is well..
Jerry

Jon Eulette · Post by **Jon Eulette** » Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:51 am

Thanks for commenting Jerry. I'm not claiming my pistol will shoot 1/2" with ALL ammo :)

When I tested the pistol I had some Eley, RWS and Lapua from my USAR days that I tested (1990's ammo). This pistol shot exceptionally well. Groups ranged from 1/2" - 9/16". I was quite pleased. I Ransomed it's twin and it shot 9/16" - 5/8" groups. They were both longslide Marvels with the barrels cut flush to the end of the slide. The same lot of RWS shot .400" at 52 meters from my TOZ free pistol. It was exceptional ammo.

For many years I've shot Federal Auto Match bulk ammo with good success. It shot 5/8" and I've shot a 100-8x slow fire with it. I was lucky to have minimal misfires, because most of the people I've recommended it to have had many.

My Hammerli 208 would barely hold 1.5" for all this ammo yet I shot an 895 with it. Shook'em all in!

I'm just wanting to see what kind of results others are getting from a mechanical rest.

What's your opinion on hand cutting the muzzle chamfer? I always see imperfect cutting from the difference in pressure from lands and grooves and it bothers me. I always lathe cut the muzzle.

I'm currently working on Steve Reiter's Marvel that you rebarreled; I love your work; it's perfect!

Jon

Jerry Keefer · Post by **Jerry Keefer** » Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:46 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:Thanks for commenting Jerry. I'm not claiming my pistol will shoot 1/2" with ALL ammo :) I know... :):)

When I tested the pistol I had some Eley, RWS and Lapua from my USAR days that I tested (1990's ammo). The same lot of RWS shot .400" at 52 meters from my TOZ free pistol. It was exceptional ammo.
I'm just wanting to see what kind of results others are getting from a mechanical rest.
Al Bacon gave me several bricks of RWS.. I hate to shoot it, it is super great ammo.. Some of it has his father in law's name on it..
What's your opinion on hand cutting the muzzle chamfer? I always see imperfect cutting from the difference in pressure from lands and grooves and it bothers me. I always lathe cut the muzzle.
I agree. I use a spider to align both axis. Once I get the bore indicated to zero, I switch to a 5 digit Swiss Testaster, reach inside the muzzle with a small ball tipped probe, and indicate the groove diameter to as close to zero as humanly possible.. The groves support the projectile.. The lands only spin it. I do the same with the chamber, but I single point the ID to within a few thousandths of finish ID, and then follow with the reamer.. The reamer now has a true axis to follow and it takes a huge load off that little reamer.

I'm currently working on Steve Reiter's Marvel that you rebarreled; I love your work; it's perfect! I hope so..:)
Steve's a great shooter and friend.. He has made me proud with all those records he has set:):)..

Jon

Jon Eulette · Post by **Jon Eulette** » Tue Apr 01, 2014 1:02 pm

When I started shooting for the USAR team, SGM Wheeler was still shooting. I miss shooting with Al, he was a lot of fun.

Some day I need to make a spider for barrel work. My set up time is quite time consuming without one.

Jon