TargetTalk

Of those clubs that use the Orion scoring systems do you permit challenges? How is everyone using the NRA rule that allows for pluging of the electronic scored paper targets? allowing shooters to challenge or not??

The information / directions from Orion state the rings are just for the shooters reference. the software does not use them to score. hence, you should not either.

they also say to limit challenges to obvious errors, i.e. 2 holes in one bullseye, too many holes in target. etc

metalsmith wrote:The information / directions from Orion state the rings are just for the shooters reference. the software does not use them to score. hence, you should not either.

Absolutely, once you commit to using ORION to score, then you should ONLY use ORION.
For many of my shooters that like to count their scores while we train, I have them take black marker and color in the bulls ... ORION still scores it fine and they can still see if they are perfectly centered or not.
Personally, I think to make the ORION targets more like a "real" EST the bulls should be solid black ... even (especially) in a match. Get rid of the rings ... You don't have them with a Megalink, Meyton, or Sius.

metalsmith wrote:they also say to limit challenges to obvious errors, i.e. 2 holes in one bullseye, too many holes in target. etc

Another obvious error is when a hole clearly cuts the line ... sometimes if the shooter is using a rifle that has a low velocity ORION can give goofy scores ... you have to check these carefully (think the 853, 953, CH200 types). If the gun is punching clean holes, ORION is pretty much foolproof. I've had guns in matches that won't even penetrate the paper, but the lead mark from the pellet is good enough to let me manually place the shot scoring ring.

BUT ... if the rules allow a challenge then the shooter, who deserves every point he shoots, should be allowed to challenge. USA Shooting and CMP rules have an additional 2 point penalty (besides the challenge fee), not sure if NRA rules tack that on (yet?)... NRA is a bit behind the ball here as their ponderous rules committee structure lets them get way behind the 8-ball.

I have no problem with shooters wanting to challenge ORION.
1) They risk a minimum of the challenge fee
2) It's just another button press for the stats person
3) If their gun is working properly, then 99.99% of the time they are going to lose the challenge.
4) No EST is 100% perfect ... none. But neither is hand scoring, I think ORION is a whole bunch better than hand scoring.

I like the idea of blacking out the rings for practice!!!!

NRA has added for 2014 that you have the option to plug an electronically scored paper target..see below


10.10.6.1 - Challenge of Paper Targets Scored by Electronic Devices -
If a challenge to the score is made, the individual bull must be challenged.
The shot will be plugged using the appropriate scoring gauge (14.3). The decision of the referee or jury is final

Pondering the following......What are opinions of using a plug (outward gauge) when the gauge scoring uses the paper bull rings and the electronic scoring uses center of the shot? There is a tech. difference in the methods of scoring? Not sure how this would play out in the determination of NRA records if both methods are used meaning that you could if you wanted to challenge every bull on an Orion target.....the shots could be plugged hence using both the rings and the center of the shot.. Can not do that on mega link or Suis and can not do that on paper scored only....thoughts????

oddsonjjf wrote:NRA has added for 2014 that you have the option to plug an electronically scored paper target..see below

10.10.6.1 - Challenge of Paper Targets Scored by Electronic Devices -
If a challenge to the score is made, the individual bull must be challenged.
The shot will be plugged using the appropriate scoring gauge (14.3). The decision of the referee or jury is final

This is the behind the 8-Ball thing I am concerned about. The rules committee obviously does not understand ORION, or if they do they were not thinking when they threw that rule in. You either have to score electronically --OR-- with plugs, NOT BOTH.
If you are scoring electronically, then you hit the challenge button and let ORION rescore the bull with a more complex algorithm.

If you use a plug to rescore then you are scoring that one shooter with two different methods which is unfair to the other shooters ... unless you want to go back and rescore all the targets in a match with that plug....

oddsonjjf wrote:I like the idea of blacking out the rings for practice!!!!

I have a shooter that was counting his scores as he shot and would just beat himself up and lose focus on what he was trying to do. Watch his score climb or shoot in the center.

I had him black out the bulls and he went from a consistent 565-570 set of scores to now shooting 580-588 (60 shot standing). He was astounded what he had been doing to himself. He shot a 585 at the OTC this past weekend at the PTO.

Take the spotting scopes away during training

The Match Directors Bulletin Board note.
Only “obvious” errors will be considered on Orion Scored targets. No other challenges are allowed.

redschietti wrote:Take the spotting scopes away during training

Jim ... if all I want them doing is concentrating on position, yes, that's a good option. If I want them getting a group centered, and learning how not to be afraid of moving those knobs, they need the scopes to see the holes.
Depends on the level of the shooter and what I'm trying to get across.

You going to Benning or working?

GCSInc wrote:The Match Directors Bulletin Board note.
Only “obvious” errors will be considered on Orion Scored targets. No other challenges are allowed.

If that's what the match director wants, then OK I guess. I know ORION is not perfect and have seen the challenge button give a higher score .... granted it's probably 1 bull out of 7800 (0.0001%) in a good sized match, but I don't mind hitting the button, if the shooter gets that 1 point, they deserve it ... but in a CMP match they better be very careful ... a -2 point penalty can bump you many positions.

GCSInc wrote:The Match Directors Bulletin Board note.
Only “obvious” errors will be considered on Orion Scored targets. No other challenges are allowed.

as Orion states that you can challenge but the challenge is run on the computer not by plugging the hole with a gauge ...but NRA says via 10.10.6.1 a shooter can challenge a paper target scored on electronic system or should I say bull….and the jury will plug the target.....so if you are running NRA matches on an Orion system and would want the shooter to advocate for themselves which in my view is the reason for challenge period....that is where the issue lies..... I cannot see how the NRA will have this new addendum long without creating a huge controversy....as you are going to have issues with some Orion targets that are scored and challenged by Orion and then others scored and challenged AND plugged which one could say would jepordize the integrity of the target????

oddsonjjf wrote:

GCSInc wrote:The Match Directors Bulletin Board note.
Only “obvious” errors will be considered on Orion Scored targets. No other challenges are allowed.

as Orion states that you can challenge but the challenge is run on the computer not by plugging the hole with a gauge ...but NRA says via 10.10.6.1 a shooter can challenge a paper target scored on electronic system or should I say bull….and the jury will plug the target.....so if you are running NRA matches on an Orion system and would want the shooter to advocate for themselves which in my view is the reason for challenge period....that is where the issue lies..... I cannot see how the NRA will have this new addendum long without creating a huge controversy....as you are going to have issues with some Orion targets that are scored and challenged by Orion and then others scored and challenged AND plugged which one could say would jepordize the integrity of the target????

Here's what the NRA rules committee does not understand:

Once the target is scanned, the physical target is no longer relevant ... the scanned jpeg-image is what is scored, and what is "re-scored" if a challenge is made. There is no way to physically "plug" that image, it is a computer construct.

Shooter's Technology specifically has stated either you score the physical target (with plugs and such) not using ORION --OR-- you use ORION to score the jpeg-image. You cannot use both ways and score fairly.

We use it for our 4-H matches. Remember "most" of these kids don't go any further than 4-H. Last year was our first full year to use it and we had lots of challenges (more of a why or how does it work). This year after 1200 targets, I think we have had 4 challenges. Now remember what I said about "Most" of the kids, that also goes along with the coaches. I have neglected to tell them of the new NRA rule about plugs. They have began to trust the Orion so why bring it up.

I love the idea of blacking out the rings. Will for sure do this. May even score one with the rings, then black out the rings and re score it. Just for educational purposes.

I know you guys in the US seem to mostly use a 10 bull target for 10m air, rather than target changers and single bull/strip targets like we seem to do over here in europe. Thats when not using EST. One thing I like is that Kruger make a target strip with just the aiming mark, no scoring rings. Although designed for use with optical scoring machines I like them for using in trainig. For beginners, or experianced shooters for that matter, it can be very good when at the initial group building stage (or when working on that aspect with experianced shooters). No rings means your new shooter dosen't take his targets away from the club and proceed to try to calculate some sort of score. Even when you black the target with a marker pen you can usually still see the rings if you look closely.

I would like to see the same with just the 8 ring for group centering practice. Your average shooter is gernerally too competetive to not try to compute scores.

Now to back more on topic, would these targets work with the Orion system to give scores? Or one with just a 10 ring printed to give you something to group center to? Optically read paper targets are not very common here in the UK, although I think they are quite common in Germany/Austria/Switzerland, for both 10m and 50m, where they are not using EST systems. I have only shot 10m on EST once, and they show you both fall of shot and score (only integer during the match though) for every shot, as well as cumulative total. Well at least on the 15 year old Suis Ascor system at Bisley. I managed to set my firing point position up so I could only see the fall of shot and current shot score without trying hard. At least I could ignore the string/total score part. I tend to bugger it up if I know I am on for a good score.

Sorry for being a bit off topic.

Alan

Kruger prints the ORION targets.

I suppose you could request a custom run, but the expense would be pretty costly. As it is the ORION targets are about 3X more expensive than US printed targets ... mainly because of the much higher quality paper and the freight of getting them across the deep blue, exchange rates, etc.

I'm not all that worried about them finally knowing a score on a target after the fact ... I score them and they get the results the next practice session.
They don't take the targets home, I do, to score them with ORION.

I don't want them focusing on score as they shoot ... I want them focusing on group size (I usually have them shoot 2-3 shots per bull), and whether their shots are centered ... the second is harder to tell w/o a true EST, but they eventually do get that info from the ORION scoring printouts and we adjust their techinque.

Blacking in the rings? Brilliant!

All,

The NRA Rules Committee is looking at the discussion points made in this thread. Hopefully we'll get some "clarification" before the next Rule Book change.