TargetTalk

I am new here and I am looking to help my grandson in his desire to become a competition target shooter. He is presently using a gun clubs loaner rifle (a Savage) with iron sights, certified as pro marksman so far, three position.

I am looking to purchase his first competition rifle and have noticed the very LARGE number of different types to choose from with no real thorough explanation of just what some of these are for - especially an older used one. Our understanding is that some competition rifles are for prone only, multi purpose, bench rest, etc, etc.

Any help we could get in sorting out all these numbers (1400's, 1700's, 1800's, 1900's, etc., etc.) so we can get him his first competition rifle would be greatly appreciated.

Max outlay would hopefully be around $1000 -$1500 range.

The numbers you refer to are for Anschutz rifles. Their system is really quite simple for the most part, it only starts to get complicated for the newer aluminium stocked models. Do note that rifles with the same model number may look different if not the same age; Anschutz have updated their stocks, without changing the base model.

Think of the model number as two pairs; the first pair is the production series (age), the second is the stock/barrel combination.

Here is a quick guide I wrote a few years ago:

14XX - The rifle was made between 1954 and 1980. Rifles made 1954 -1976 have the wing safety bolt, and a straight handle. Rifles made from 1977-1980 have a trigger safety, and conical bolt cap, plus a redesigned trigger and firing pin. Serial numbers end in an X. Handles were straightb in '77-78, and curved in '79-'80. '77-'80 vintage rifles are often called 16xx, or Transition-models, or X-Barrels to differentiate them.

17xx - Sporting rifles not suited for serious target shooting.

18xx - The rifle was made between 1980 and 1987. The action/bolt/trigger is very similar to the 16xx, but with enough differences that bolts/triggers are not interchangeable.

19XX - The rifle was made in 1987 or after. The action is the same as the 18xx (bar one miniscule change). The foresight mounting switched from a dovetail block to grooves cut directly into the muzzle (now a slightly larger diameter to suit). the 1907 has a slightly shorter and lighter barrel than the 1913. The 1907 can also be found as a repeater, although extremely rare

XX13 - AKA The Supermatch. This is Anschutz's top of the line Olympic Free Rifle. It has a walnut thumbhole stock. The butt is adjustable for LOP via a thumbscrew, and height, and offset/cant after the late '60s. Rifles made after 1971 will have an adjustable comb. Barrel is 69cm long and about 24mm diameter.

XX11 - The Prone rifle, Made 1954 to about 2000. This had a broad, straight fore-end. It has the same heavy 69cm barrel as the XX13. Rifles made after 1971 will have an adjustable comb.

XX07 - 1954-1964- A Lightweight 9lb rifle.
1970- Present - The UIT Standard, an 11lb rifle in a basic 3-P stock. The barrel is 66cm/26in and lighter than the XX11/XX13. The fore-end is deeper than the XX11 or XX13. Most XX07 for-ends are flush with the triggerguard and then taper up.

XX10 - 197? -2000ish, a cheaper version of the XX13. It has the same barrel but a different stock. The stock is beech, and the fore-end tapers like an XX07.

XX09 - 1960s - A cheaper version of the 1413, without the LOP adjustment.
1970s-2000 an XX07 barrel in an XX10 stock.

XX08 - 1965-1970 Anschutz's first UIT standard rifle, for reasons unknown the model number was changed to 1407.
1970s- Running Target rifle.

1912 - 1997-Present, a scaled down 1913 with a 1907 barrel to meet the 6.5kg weight limit for the ISSF Ladies Sport rifle rules.

As well as Anschutz, you may also find Walther and Feinwerkbau, which are German rifles of equal quality, but rather less common.

It's nice you want a gun for the kid, but hang on a while. He is only at the lowest level of shooting skill and DOES have at least one suitable rifle he can use.

It gives him no help for you to drop a grand or so for a, perhaps, inappropriate gun. Give him another year or so while you both learn.

miata55,

Your profile says your are in Fort Worth. What club are you in?

Miata,

First, more generally for the 22 smallbore game a "Target Rifle" usually starts with a single shot bolt action. (after you fire the rifle you have to manually open the bolt, pick a round up out of some kind of container, place the round in the rifle and close the bolt before it is ready to fire.) No magazines, auto loaders or semi-automatics, at least not for the rifle shooting discussed here.

Next, a target rifle will typically have a heavier than normal barrel, a "pistol grip" that allows the wrist to stay more or less straight when you are in position and typically a prominent or even adjustable cheek piece to better locate the eye behind the sights. Speaking of sights, the sights will be "peep" or aperture sights. A disk with a small hole in back and usually a ring inside a housing up front.

As you may have noticed target rifles can be expensive. $1000 to $1500 will get you started with an entry model and you can get near $10,000 if you want the finest of custom everything.

Tim S give a very good breakdown of the Anschutz (dominant brand in the US) top end or Match 54 based rifles. The part often overlooked for newer shooters is the Mark 64 based rifles. Based on a smaller lighter action the Mark 64 was intended for a first target rifle or target rifle for younger smaller shooters.

The present incarnation of the Mark 64 is the Anschutz 1903. A bit lighter and much simpler than some of the higher end rifles it is what I typically recommend for someone looking to buy a rifle for a preteen or early teen new shooter. I have not checked prices recently but as of a few months ago they could be found used with sights for around $1000. New, I think you would be looking at $1500, perhaps a touch more with sights.

My question, how old and how tall and how heavy is your grandson?

Cheers,
'Dude

My grandson is a 14 y.o. and is 5' 9" and weighs about 120

Thanks so very much for the information. I really do appreciate everything. I am presently looking at an Anshutz Model 54 Match that is for sale with Olympic sights, thumb hole stock and some accessories for $660.00. Would this be suitable for what I have been discussing?

TexasShooter wrote:miata55,

Your profile says your are in Fort Worth. What club are you in?

My grandson shoots at the Haltom City Rifle and Pistol club

Miata,

A Match 54 with a thumbhole stock (esp for $660) sounds like and older Anschutz (1960s or even late 1950s vintage) of what eventually became the 1413, then 1813 and 1913. This is the top of the line.

Now the older rifles did not begin to have the adjustments that today's modern rifles have but nonetheless, this would be overkill for the level your grandson is at. More practically, this is a heavy 12-13 pound rifle and at 10% plus his body weight will kill him in 3P.

OK, yeah it would work and is clearly and upgrade from the Savage but you really want something a little more basic and lighter.

'Dude

I agree with justadude,

It's premature to purchase a rifle for someone at the pro-marksman level of shooting, especially when he has a perfectly functional rifle he can use from the club.

For a lot of reasons:

You don't know that he is going to stick with the sport.

If he does stick with it, you don't know what type of shooting he will want to pursue (prone, 3P, international, etc.) so you don't yet know what type of rifle will suit his chosen style of competition.

A rifle needs to fit, and he is growing. Buying a too large rifle "that he can grow into" is a recipe for disaster. He won't shoot it well and that will lead to discouragement. Buy a rifle that will fit now will mean buying a rifle again in a short while.

In my experience one of the most important reasons to wait, if you want him to really excel in the game....

You don't want to instill the idea that you can "buy" points. Once kids begin to think that the reason they are not improving is because they need better equipment rather than discipline and practice it's not too long before they quit.

This last one, of course, assumes that the equipment is in fact not the limiting factor. The Savage he is shooting in quite capable of cleaning or coming close to cleaning the A17 target (which is what I'm betting he is using). Even if it's not ... the required level of performance for a pro-marksman is really very low, in fact the NRA program he is using the entire scheme all the way to expert is pretty easy to obtain.

I'm not dismissing the program here, it's great! My children are doing it right now. But it's designed as a entry level program to develop basic skills and interest in the sport. And it does quite well at that, but it's really a starting point to enter the shooting game. Once you reach distinguished expert in the program, you are just reaching the level of skill to be classified as a marksman at the sanctioned match level of shooting.

So, to end this mile long rant, until he is shooting expert or distinguished expert in the NRA qualification program, OR you can conclusively see that he can out shoot the rifle he is now using, I say wait.

Then when the time is right buy the correct gun that will propel him to the next level.

If he did not have access to a club rifle, then that's another story.

I hope this helps.

I am so thankful for all the wonderful insights and advice. It really is nice that there are such friendly, helpful, and knowledgeable folks around this site.

Miata,

It is easy to get into the mindset of "it costs more", "it has more adjustments" or "it is new this year" so it must be better when none of that makes any difference to a new shooter. The thing that helps the new shooter is consistent training and learning proper sight alignment and trigger control.

As pointed out by DLS the NRA qualification program sets a reasonable standard of accomplishment but you do not have to be a national class competitor to achieve Distinguished Expert. At Pro-Marksman I know your Grandson has put in enough shots, time and attention so he can be counted on to handle the rifle safely an keep the shots in the target area. By the time he has worked up into Sharpshooter he is developing beginning skills as a competitive shooter.

Now, I will go against what DLS has weighed in a bit. While I believe DLS is probably right, a shooter could get to Expert with the Savage it is the hard way to do it. If your Grandson applies himself, by early Spring he should be in the lower levels of the Sharpshooter series of the qualifications. By then you will have a sense if this is something he is going to do for a while. While he could continue with a club rifle he would likely advance more quickly with his own rifle. (He shoots the same gun every time, no one else has adjusted the sights, trigger always feels the same.) Plus, there is some pride and motivation in being able to say "This is MY rifle."

I fall back to one of my earlier recommendations, look into an Anschutz 1903, 1803 or 1403. (The 1803 and 1403 being earlier models of the current 1903) As target rifles go, Anschutz is relatively common in the US. These are good "my first target rifle" rifles, well capable of completing Distinguished Expert. The cost is reasonable and if after a year to two your Grandson decides he is not interested in shooting anymore you can get most or sometimes all of your money back when you sell it.

OK, my 2 cents for a Monday morning.

'Dude

Again - thanks for all the valid input and help. I took the advice (so to speak) and just bought him an the suggested Anschutz 1903 with Anschutz sights, tools, and a hard case. Probably get it in about a week.

I guess its now on to the accessories such as a glove, shoes, etc? He has no shooting accessories at all so we shall be looking around to see what we can find. He went to the range again today and entered his first NRA match and placed third with the loaner rifle and no accessories. Man all those other kids had suits, gloves, shoes, spotting scopes, stands, etc. And I just stood there thinking - Wow, what have I gotten him into (LOL). Or should I say me?

A glove is a good start. And your grandson will appreciate the cushioning effect on his hand!

For a first time purchase an own-brand glove form one of the target shooting supply shops will be fine. The name brands like Kurt Thune or Sauer last a little longer, but are more expensive. A fingerless glove may give a little more growing room. I would only buy a new glove, as used gloves will be sweaty inside, and the padding will be compressed.

A single point sling for Prone and Kneeling would be my next suggestion, that is if you don't already have one. These are made of thick leather or synthetic material (usually nylon fabric embedded in plastic). Synthetic material is preferred by some shooters as it doesn't stretch with age; leather can lose some of its elasticity when old, but will usually last for many years. Personally I'd be wary of used leather slings, unless clearly quite new-looking.

I would only recommend UIT style slings; these are a maximum of 40mm wide, but cane be positioned better up the arm than the very wide US-NRA slings.

A jacket will be the major purchase. I would definitely pick this before shooting trousers. An own brand jacket will be fine. These are mostly made of strong double layer canvas, but sometimes canvas-lined-leather, and really help to spread the weight of the rifle in the prone position. The rubber elbow patches make life more comfortable, and also reduce slipping. The stiff canvas also supports and protects the lower back in standing. Alternatively look for a used jacket; jackets are sturdy and quite durable. Lots of shooters start with a used jacket.

The difficulty is that your grandson is probably still growing. You could buy a jacket that's a little large, and pack him out with sweatshirts, but a jacket that is too large tends to slip in Prone.

Spotting Scope: This is a major purchase. A good spotting scope is essentiaal to see where your shots are going, so you can adjust your sights promptly. Serious adult competitors will often spend a small fortune to get top quality lenses that will show bullet holes in haze and gloom. A cheap 'scope will be fine for a beginner though. Be warned that the stands supplied with cheap 'scopes are usually too flimsy for regular use, and may not place the 'scope right for easy use. A good quality bipod or tripod stand isn't cheap but will be steadier, and place the 'scope right; extension rods will lift it up for kneeling and standing.

If you can borrow a 'scope do so!

Shooting Trousers - Regular trousers will be fine for a while. Proper shooting trousers give support to the back in standing, and can be unzipped for kneeling, but I'd get the jacket first. If buying used, bear in mind the rules have changed recently, so if there is a pad on the seat, this has to be removed to follow ISSF rules (US rules may differ).

Shoes - pistol shooters wear shoes, rifle shooters wear boots. Normal shoes will be fine to start with. Shooting poots have a flat sole for balance. Older shoes may have a square toe, but current rules require a round toe, and no more than 5mm protrusion of the sole.

Oh my oh my oh my!!!! Looks like every time I ask a question around here the $$$$ just keeps going up - LOL. Oh well, I always try and look out for the bright side and it looks like his next few birthdays and Christmas will be taken care of! I think I should get his Grammy involved now. She has more money than I do anyway - or at least more than she allows me to carry around and play with!

Sorry, I should have made myself clearer. I think a glove and sling would be excellent, but relatively inexpensive purchases in the short term. The other items (i.e. jacket, 'scope, trousers etc) acquire as and when finances allow. I was just giving some very rough information.

The only other thing I'd add to the "buy soon list" is a basic cleaning kit. I don't think Anschutz supply one with their rifles. At a minimum you need some multi-pupose (i.e rust proofing and light cleaning) oil*, a .22cal boresnake, and some lint-free cotton cloth.

A more comprehensive kit would include a .22cal cleaning rod (single length steel, either platsic coated or bare steel, with a rotating handle), a .22cal jag, a .22 cal brass brush, .22 cal patches, and a bottle of Hoppes no 9 (or other powder/lead)solvent.

Grandson will want to wipe down the outside of the barrel and action with an oily cloth after shooting. Clean the barrel as needed; it's best to do so before accuracy deteriorates. He may need to fire a few fouling shots after cleaning.

*This can be a branded gun oil, but you won't need a fancy product endorsed by SWAT teams or Navy seals under normal smallbore shooting conditions.

If you choose to purchase a jacket, a dedicated shooting sweater - not a common sweatshirt should be considered. The shooting sweater will provide double layers of padding in the appropriate areas without adding bulk on the inside of the elbows or in the armpits. A proper shooting sweater will largely mimic the positioning of the jacket's rubberized areas on the exterior. The jacket adds support and prevents elbows from slipping, but does not provide much padding or protection from friction on the interior canvas surfaces. A shooting sweater will also provide a high rear collar to keep the jacket away from the neck.

All of which a typical sweatshirt does not. Look at the sweaters from the store brands, and you can find one pretty inexpensively (for this sport).

I guess I should have been a bit more forthcoming about my own personal experience and abilities with firearms. I have been shooting something since I was 9 years old and my grandfather taught me early on - you shoot it (gun) you clean it before you put it away. That was the beginning - now I buy older guns (any brand or model, rifle or revolver) that usually look like some pit bulls chew toy - restore the furniture to original, metal to white and rust blue them completely, then shoot them, and sometimes sell one or two. So now on to my grandson and his soon to be new 1903 when it finally arrives. Since he was 10, I have personally taught him and his two brothers the same as my grandfather taught me - you shoot it you clean it. They all have been provided the best in cleaners, lubes, and furniture oils and waxes. The firearms they have are pristine at all times or they go back in my gun safe for a spell until the lesson is learned. So I can assure everyone that his new 1903 will be well treated and cared for at all times.

I want to say that the advice I am getting here is awesome and very much appreciated. All of it has led us in the right direction each and every time. The youngest grandson is loving what he is doing so much and has impressed his older brother, that both of them attended today at the rifle club and the older one out shot the younger one on his first try at the sport (he is left handed) using a borrowed right handed Savage - ouch! He got so excited he is now so anxious for Grandpaw to get him a set of Anschutz type sights for his Mark II GL Savage so he can start learning competitive shooting too.

I obviously have created a couple of monsters and it will cost me dearly - LOL!!!!

If you are ever in need of another grandson I volunteer! LOL

Well, the news from here is not so good at the moment. That 1903 I said that I thought I had purchased???? Well, it was on GunBroker.com and I did everything I thought I was supposed to do (FFL sent - Cashiers check sent, verified sellers address and phone) and here it is three weeks later and no rifle, and no further contact with seller. Next step has been to have GunBroker mail the seller a letter, going through local PD to file a complaint so sellers local Sheriff dept. will investigate, contact USPS to file federal mail fraud complaint, and generally kick my own butt for not doing? I don't know what else. Looks like a lot of money gone who knows where.

Guess I will have to start looking for another one because my grandson is absolutely devastated he isn't getting it. This time I will drive or fly to BFE if necessary and pay face to face in person when I pick it up. BUMMER!