TargetTalk

Yesterday, I did a few grip mods on my 50m pistol - a МЦ55-1 on which the grips are highly modified originals. Today, I went to the range to try it out.

After about 3 or 4 shots, I noticed a small "click" on the back of my hand, caused by the adjustable palm shelf. This happened just as I was increasing the trigger pressure and happened just before the shot broke.

It is a great pistol but it is not so intuitive that it knows when the shot is about to break - but obviously I do. Most of my shots do break by surprise (no pulling the trigger)!

After a few more shots, I realised that I was increasing my grip pressure very, very slightly as I was applying the trigger pressure (only about 15 grams) and I found this out because I had not tightened the palm shelf really tight and the increase in grip pressure caused the palm shelf to move very slightly and "click".

My first response was to tighten the palm shelf to remove the movement, then decided not to because the palm shelf was tight enough for a normal grip and I needed a reminder that my grip pressure must be constant throughout the execution of the shot. If the grip clicked, then I cancelled the shot and started again. It seemed to work. Eventually I will tighten the palm shelf really tight but not until I am satisfied that I have addressed the issue.

So, the big question is, "How long have I been doing this?" My guess is a long time - possibly for years! Obviously it is another issue that I will have to address during training - with all my pistols in all the matches I shoot. Rapid fire will be interesting!

If someone had told me that I was doing this, I doubt that I would have believed them because I thought my grip was constant. If this is a "syndrome", I wonder how many other pistol shooters suffer from it.

Also, what other things am I doing that I need to know about? Maybe it is time for a little reflection on the basics of my technique. What I don't need are doubts about my technique so back for a visit to elementary school!

... and I wonder how good and perceptive a coach would need to be to quickly pick up such an almost imperceptible error in technique.

If it is significantly affecting your shots, I suspect a "ball and dummy" exercise with a coach or shooting buddy would help detect this & similar issues. Get some "action proving rounds" from a gunsmith supply vendor (Brownells has them), and have someone swap them in randomly. You can do this yourself if you can load the pistol with your eyes closed. The goal is that you must fire normally, but when you get a dummy round, any motion of the front sight is all yours.

Gwhite wrote:If it is significantly affecting your shots...

I don't know if it does because I believe I have done it for years.

Gwhite wrote:Get some "action proving rounds" .... you can load the pistol with your eyes closed.

That is my case of Vostok Target 22LR that I bought for half price many years ago. About 1 in 4 shots fails to fire! I have no idea which ones are "duds".

Gwhite wrote:The goal is that you must fire normally, but when you get a dummy round, any motion of the front sight is all yours.

But this is not the problem. Most of my shots do break by surprise as I squeeze the trigger (not all - still more work to do using your technique) but I also increase my squeeze on the grips as I squeeze the trigger. The sights do stay in alignment throughout the execution of the shot because the squeeze is gradual. This may not affect the result of the shot BUT it is poor technique and needs to be fixed in case it does have an effect on the size of my groups.

I was thinking more about this syndrome overnight. I believe that it is this that causes the "10-pound trigger". This is when you believe that you are increasing the pressure on the trigger but does not fire. Many newer and impatient shooters then make it fire with the resulting poor shot whereas most shooters with experience (and are able to override the feeling of impatience) cancel the shot and try again. It seems logical that the belief that we are increasing pressure on the trigger is really increasing grip pressure with little increase in trigger pressure. I believe that this is also closely linked to performance anxiety - even more reason to concentrate on technique, not results!.

What trigger weight are you running ?
It can have an effect on grip pressure and hold.

David M wrote:What trigger weight are you running ?
It can have an effect on grip pressure and hold.

Thanks, David. I'm not sure of my trigger weight exactly. My estimate is 10 - 15 grams. (How do you accurately measure triggers that are that light?)

I try to be active in my technique by trying to achieve a 7 to 10 second shot release from when the sights start to settle into the aiming area. So I try to be positive in the application of trigger pressure. Every now and then (about 6 to 8 shots), I experience the "10-pound trigger" where I'm obviously squeezing the grips, not the trigger. By then, I'm well over the 10 seconds and it's time to cancel anyway. After today's practice session, I believe that it is during these shots that I struggle to achieve a good sight picture and something in my brain tells me to hold the pistol firmer, hence the increased grip pressure at the same time I'm trying to cause the trigger to release. I think that because I'm already increasing the grip squeeze, I have to consciously think about trigger pressure (and divert some of my concentration from the sight picture). Because I am loathe to reduce concentration on the sights, the shot does not break (and nor should it if I have to force it!)

Today's new theory is to work extra hard to attain a good sight picture quickly and see if that reduces the number of grip squeezes and therefore, cancelled shots.

What I want to do is to reduce the number of cancelled shots by adopting perfect technique (ideally) each time I start the shot process. Reasons for this are: I'm in my mid 60s and my physical endurance is not what it was so I don't want to engage in more shot preparations (pistol raises) than I need to. Also, the 50m Pistol and Air Pistol matches are becoming shorter in time - so no time for too many multiple attempts to fire a shot.

jliston48 wrote:How do you accurately measure triggers that are that light?

Two options:

1- Commercially available trigger measuring devices for FP. Usually quite expensive but very accurate.

2- A paper clip to make a hook, and a small chain (or a bracelet). Attach the chain to the clip and hook it to the trigger. See how many links it can lift before it fires.
Grab the chain from the other end and place the clip plus the number of links on a scale capable of reading those weights, leaving the rest of the links hanging. This should give you a better number for your pull weight.

Hope this helps

Perhaps adjustment of all the available options for the trigger will help? Trigger weight, stages, trigger travel distance, dry or creeping, angle of trigger shoe, trigger location in relation to your trigger finger?

I would LOVE to own a MTs55, but the idea of no spare parts scares me away.

PS. I am a poor shot, take away my Steyr and FWB AP, everything I own are for free pistol competitions (combined for 12 Olympic and 16 WCH individual event wins, and I don't own a Toz-35). I love them, can break them down and study them (especially the older ones), but I cannot shoot it good enough to save my life.

conradin wrote:PS. I am a poor shot, take away my Steyr and FWB AP, everything I own are for free pistol competitions (combined for 12 Olympic and 16 WCH individual event wins, and I don't own a Toz-35). I love them, can break them down and study them (especially the older ones), but I cannot shoot it good enough to save my life.

A bit confused. You're saying you're a poor shot, but that you have 12 Olympic and 16 WCH wins? Or your pistols have? Or those models of pistols have? Seems more likely the third option but the phrasing has me scratching my head.

Not to beat a dead horse here on the issue of trigger vs sight alignment, but on a trigger that light, you can probably get away with tightening your grip as you anticipate the live shot.

If you were shooting a heavy triggered gun, it might impede your trigger finger enough to give you really bad results.


Keeping your grip consistent should give you "better" results no matter what weight the trigger is.

Gerard wrote:

conradin wrote:PS. I am a poor shot, take away my Steyr and FWB AP, everything I own are for free pistol competitions (combined for 12 Olympic and 16 WCH individual event wins, and I don't own a Toz-35). I love them, can break them down and study them (especially the older ones), but I cannot shoot it good enough to save my life.

A bit confused. You're saying you're a poor shot, but that you have 12 Olympic and 16 WCH wins? Or your pistols have? Or those models of pistols have? Seems more likely the third option but the phrasing has me scratching my head.

The pistol models of course, not the actual pistols. Although I am happy to report that, the last tournament that I have been to (the second tournament ever for me), I would have scored enough to beat the last guy in the 1912 Olympics. My next goal is to beat the last guy in the 1908 Olympics.

conradin wrote:

Gerard wrote:

conradin wrote:PS. I am a poor shot, take away my Steyr and FWB AP, everything I own are for free pistol competitions (combined for 12 Olympic and 16 WCH individual event wins, and I don't own a Toz-35). I love them, can break them down and study them (especially the older ones), but I cannot shoot it good enough to save my life.

A bit confused. You're saying you're a poor shot, but that you have 12 Olympic and 16 WCH wins? Or your pistols have? Or those models of pistols have? Seems more likely the third option but the phrasing has me scratching my head.

The pistol models of course, not the actual pistols. Although I am happy to report that, the last tournament that I have been to (the second tournament ever for me), I would have scored enough to beat the last guy in the 1912 Olympics. My next goal is to beat the last guy in the 1908 Olympics.

Be careful of doing direct comparisons like that. i dont believe it was the same course of fire. However, as a motivating tool, it can be a wondeful frame of mimd.

Always love that 'not to beat a dead horse... but' opening line. Similarly 'not to mention...' is always good for a shudder. Both are inevitably followed by exactly that which the speaker/writer has only just at that moment said they would not do. I've wondered most of my life why these phrases even exist then they are misused almost universally. Isabel feels that heavier-triggered guns are harder to shoot. Is this a correct statement?

For my 2 cents, I'll suggest that heavier-triggered guns are different to shoot compared to lighter-triggered guns. With the heavier trigger the extreme force needed to smoothly draw back the trigger must be incorporated into the grip, else the inevitable asymmetry of the hand and of finger movement (the finger is, after all, moving through an arc on the horizontal plane, no matter how small, and with some guns on the vertical plane as well depending on trigger design) will unduly influence the relative position of the pistol frame causing a missed shot.

By comparison the muscular involvement with a lighter trigger is much reduced. However there are other factors involved. Barrel time is one; the relatively low velocity of an AP pellet (between about 400fps and 550fps in competition) and rather long barrel combine to make for double to quadruple the time the projectile spends inside the barrel as compared to FP (about double at a guess) or 'action pistols' of bigger calibres and high powder loads, with much shorter barrels (quadruple or more as compared to these). Longer barrel time equals longer intervals during which triggering/grip stability errors may influence the path of the projectile.

Witness the classic pistol error of 'heeling' for instance. Anticipating recoil is one oft-cited reason for this error. Another is too long a hold, the jumping-up of the muzzle being a reaction to having prolonged the hold so long that fatigue has begun to set in and the heeling motion is a gesture of release from this uncomfortable condition. A similar swiping to one side or the other is often seen for a similar reason. Some have argued consistently that heeling and related hold errors happen too late, that Elvis has left the building, pellet is long gone and any way the shooter decided to fling his or her pistol about will have no bearing... but then why does EVERY school of AP shooting insist upon stressing the importance of follow-through? Are we to believe that heeling or other grip/trigger errors all happen before the shot? I'd like to see the ultra-slow-motion video evidence of that!

So far I've seen a few videos claiming to offer evidence that recoil has no bearing on shot placement because it happens after the bullet has left the muzzle, but none has actually demonstrated anything of the sort. Just pistols (firearm types) being fired and recoiling massively after the projectile has gone... maybe, because none show the bullet leaving the barrel for more than one frame, if even that, nor even bother putting the pistol against a static grid for reference. This short video doesn't really show much one could use to prove it either way, but the simple, rational voice-over says almost everything one needs to know on the subject succinctly:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4c69Bd5ntPE

One thing notably left out when he refers to 'human compensation' is sighting; when we sight in our pistols a tiny part of that is tied to recoil, at least in AP models which do recoil. Those modern PCP pistols with anti-recoil compensation built in (Steyr LP series, Pardini K12) and perfectly adjusted are pretty much dead where recoil is concerned because Newton's 3rd law is being counter-acted by that mechanism at the instant of firing. For the force of the projectile moving forward an equal and opposite force is being administered to the air pistol as the pellet begins its forward movement, negating recoil before it can start. Only in such cases can it be said that recoil has no effect on shot placement. In all (slightly) recoiling models, sight adjustment must compensate for the (very slight) jump of the muzzle. That's just physics, and yes, physics applies to air pistols.

Back to hand movement. Recoil is obviously instantaneous. But is the human arm/hand not capable of instantaneous movement? In fact that's the only kind of movement of which it is capable. Reaction time seems to be a point of confusion and debate on this subject, though it is seldom if ever mentioned as such. The average reaction time is far, far too long an interval to be relevant in reference to barrel time for a projectile. But reaction time isn't the thing I'm talking about here. Remember, heeling is 'anticipating recoil' not 'reacting to recoil.' We are perfectly capable of pre-reacting to an event, anticipating it and acting at the very instant or even at some interval prior to that event. As such, how could it be stated that even the slightest movement laterally or vertically, introduced by an imperfect grip or triggering technique, has no influence on the point of impact? Quite the contrary; if the muzzle is sweeping in some direction or other, it certainly going to change the point of impact away from the direction in which the barrel was pointed at the moment of firing, as the barrel is describing an arc at that moment and continuing throughout that moment, unless the pistol has somehow stopped or changed direction of motion during the barrel transition. It is either in stillness on the 10 (rare) or in anticipation of alignment on the 10 (almost universal) that we fire, whether we are area aiming or actually conscious of the alignment of the sights on the 10. It's all well and good to chant over and over that when area aiming we are not in fact aiming, merely pointing the pistol in the general direction of a blurry blob and squeezing the trigger unconsciously etc... But the fact remains that with increasing experience we see more and more 10's (if we're improving in skill anyway) and that this derives from having fired at the right moment when the sights are about to be lined up on the 10, however we prefer to view the sights and the target. Any stresses which contribute to irregularities during the process of anticipating that alignment are to be avoided, whether it's simple changes in shot plan or distractions or suddenly squeezing the grip when holding far too long.

So yes, squeezing the grip too hard can negatively impact your points of impact. Defining 'too hard' is going to be up to the shooter's own assessment, and will vary greatly depending on experience, age, strength, when and what you last ate/drank, accuracy of the grip fitting, weight of the pistol, etc. A lot of variables. Only the individual can work out what's the 'right' grip firmness. After that, I should guess that a sudden harder squeeze would best be avoided, no matter what your pistol discipline and trigger weight.

"For my 2 cents, I'll suggest that heavier-triggered guns are different to shoot compared to lighter-triggered guns. With the heavier trigger the extreme force needed to smoothly draw back the trigger must be incorporated into the grip, else the inevitable asymmetry of the hand and of finger movement (the finger is, after all, moving through an arc on the horizontal plane, no matter how small, and with some guns on the vertical plane as well depending on trigger design) will unduly influence the relative position of the pistol frame causing a missed shot. "



I will agree with that. It has been my observation, that even in slow fire, where recoil management is not an issue, you must develop a technique suitable for triggering a heavy triggered gun. That same technique will often work on a light triggered gun, but the technique many dedicated free pistol shooters use, will often fail on a gun with a heavier trigger.

As my high master friends say, a heavy trigger "exposes poor triggering, and also magnifies other errors.

Isabel1130 wrote:

conradin wrote:Although I am happy to report that, the last tournament that I have been to (the second tournament ever for me), I would have scored enough to beat the last guy in the 1912 Olympics. My next goal is to beat the last guy in the 1908 Olympics.

Be careful of doing direct comparisons like that. I dont believe it was the same course of fire. However, as a motivating tool, it can be a wondeful frame of mimd.

Free Pistol and Free Rifle are the only ISSF events that have never changed (target is the same, as do scoring), the only changes were time allowed, and the addition of Finals and its format (FP only). Used to be 3 hours plus plenty of breaks. So the qualifying round is exactly the same for the past century. In FP case, the 1908 one was 50 yards because it was held in London, while the 1896 one was 30m. Other than that, every single Olympics the rules are the same; of course there are always some very minute addition of rules that have litle to do with shooting, such as "walkie talkies", "neutral light color background", "coaches" etc.

And yes, it is a great motivation, especially if I use my East German FP, it is mechanically similar to those who competed from 1908 (Büchel Stecherspanner) up until now (Toz-35).

I am genuinely puzzled by the posts above. Is it possible that the dialogue on the finer points of free pistol triggering is between 2 people who have never (or possibly rarely?) actually shot a free pistol? Why wouldn't Gerard and Isabel want to simply accept what BEA and Greg Derr - 2 highly accomplished FP shooters - have said on the subject? I ask this as an honest question.

FredB

FredB wrote:I am genuinely puzzled by the posts above. Is it possible that the dialogue on the finer points of free pistol triggering is between 2 people who have never (or possibly rarely?) actually shot a free pistol? Why wouldn't Gerard and Isabel want to simply accept what BEA and Greg Derr - 2 highly accomplished FP shooters - have said on the subject? I ask this as an honest question.

FredB

Puzzle your puzzler no more on this one FredB; no, I have never touched a Free Pistol nor even seen one in person, so that settles part of your puzzlement. As to Greg Derr's or BEA's no doubt wonderful and relevant thoughts on the subject of this thread... well... where are those comments in this thread? Is there something about the nature of a discussion forum which you are perhaps failing to understand, rather than about the behaviours of its participants? No doubt jliston48 would LOVE to read their thoughts on squeezing the grip. Care to share a link or two rather than just posting a smartass remark and feigning puzzlement?

Gerard wrote:

FredB wrote:I am genuinely puzzled by the posts above. Is it possible that the dialogue on the finer points of free pistol triggering is between 2 people who have never (or possibly rarely?) actually shot a free pistol? Why wouldn't Gerard and Isabel want to simply accept what BEA and Greg Derr - 2 highly accomplished FP shooters - have said on the subject? I ask this as an honest question.

FredB

Puzzle your puzzler no more on this one FredB; no, I have never touched a Free Pistol nor even seen one in person, so that settles part of your puzzlement. As to Greg Derr's or BEA's no doubt wonderful and relevant thoughts on the subject of this thread... well... where are those comments in this thread? Is there something about the nature of a discussion forum which you are perhaps failing to understand, rather than about the behaviours of its participants? No doubt jliston48 would LOVE to read their thoughts on squeezing the grip. Care to share a link or two rather than just posting a smartass remark and feigning puzzlement?

I shoot free pistol and air, although I prefer conventional.

The people who have done the best for the US in the Olympics have actually been rather accomplished with the 45, like Arnie Vitarbo, and Hershel Anderson. Steve Reiter missed the 80 Olympics because of the boycott, but has given me a lot of great advice.

When I repeat what they say, and I report my observations, of things like Jim Henderson shooting his first free pistol match and winning it, am I still wrong?

This thread and the one immediately below ("Shooting with No front sight, All trigger") evolved into basically the same topic: how important is triggering and what affects it? In both threads, some people made the claim that when the trigger weight is lighter, triggering errors become less significant. Isabel quoted Brian Zins that "Air pistol, and free pistol are all hold, because the triggers are too light to really require any skills" (and Brian said basically the same thing to me in an email).

Brian Zins is flat-out awesome, and I really hesitate to disagree with him, but I think in this case he's simply too good a shooter to understand how badly unskillful triggering can affect your AP and FP shooting. I've shot FP for over 20 years, and have seen a lot of relatively unskilled FP shooters. All those snow birds are NOT caused by bad holds; they're caused by bad triggering. And one of the main ways you can get bad triggering with a FP is by having even slight inconsistencies in grip pressure, just as the OP of this thread said.

As BEA and Greg Derr said, a lighter trigger does NOT require less skill or even basically different skills. And fundamentals are just that: fundamental. They apply to all handgun target shooting, no matter the trigger weight or caliber.

FredB

FredB wrote:In both threads, some people made the claim that when the trigger weight is lighter, triggering errors become less significant. Isabel quoted Brian Zins that "Air pistol, and free pistol are all hold, because the triggers are too light to really require any skills" (and Brian said basically the same thing to me in an email).

Despite my lack of experience, I can tell the trigger control between air and free pistols are different...at least for my OWN set up. My FP is around 10, while AP is around 425/75. I don't pull the trigger on my FP, "touch" is the more appropriate word. For the AP I don't pull either, more like gradually apply pressure (creeping). In both cases it requires totally different skills, and that extend to the amount of tension or force (how hard) or the way I hold my grip. I agree with the importance of the hold, because for me it determines the way I can set up my trigger finger.

To get back on topic and forget the BS above, 10g-15g is a very light free pistol trigger and without a lot of training very, very difficult to control.
Because all the tendons in the fingers all come together near the back of the wrist, the tension in the holding fingers will try to be the same as the trigger finger.
With a very light trigger you spend most of the time trying not to apply a natural tension on the trigger as you grip the pistol and you have a opposing fight between your fingers.
Try putting your trigger weight up to 65g-80g and use a lightly held grip.
You will have a much better trigger control. You should be able to put your finger on the trigger and load it up using the fat/soft tissue on the finger pad virtually as a first stage. With control you can tickle the trigger and not set it off, but have a feel for the trigger.
Once a firm placement is set, a slight increase in pressure will fire the shot.
The total tension in the hand is that of a light hand shake. Hopefully the tension will be even across all fingers.
If shooting in cold weather try going up as high as 100g to get trigger feel.