TargetTalk

Hi what is the correct height for a 10m air pistol target thanks

The centre should be 1.4m +/-50mm above the level of the firing point floor.

Thanks David

David is there any rules concerning the SURROUNDING of the target? For example, the very tall pole on the target end of a pulley system (including color or height limitation). Height of the ropes of the pulley system. Also, this happened to me before, what if you hit the pulley system clamp which is to hold the target paper? I should have scored a "three" at 5 o'clock..instead there is a big tear on the paper and the scorer ended up making a blind guess. I know the questions sound not important, but at this stage of my young career it does make a difference. Once I was told to not shoot directly in front of the target in a tournament "because the trolley wheel is there" and was told to shoot from the right side of the table, some 2' off the center line. Another time it was not even a problem as the trolley was set up really low so I can shoot directly at the target.
I'm sure you will probably just give me the rule numbers of the ISSF rule book, but at least I can look it up from the numbers you give me, instead of trying to find it from that huge book myself.

I'd strongly recommend not shooting the 3 ring, or anywhere near it. Tends to lower one's score rather badly. As for shooting the target clip, it seems likely that this would fall under a similar rule as the one where the officials will disqualify a shooter for hitting the metal plate surrounding the target (with electronic targets), on second offense if memory serves. It's really annoying for the club shooters afterwards anyway. Having to struggle to straighten bent clip arms isn't much fun. I'd suggest picking a lane where where the clips are set more widely apart if possible. Or just don't pull the trigger when your hold isn't staying in the black. And moving to one side to avoid shooting a pulley seems odd. Perhaps the range was set up incorrectly. I'm struggling to visualize how that would be possible as the pulley should be at least a few inches below the target.

Is there a rule about the COLOR of the background or back wall?
It matters to me because of I use filters of different color for my glasses, but also I paint my front sight white. (I also carry a black front sight).

Gerard wrote:I'd strongly recommend not shooting the 3 ring, or anywhere near it. Tends to lower one's score rather badly.

The 1-3 ring is gradually becoming non-existing to me nowadays in practice. Most of my non Bull shots are 5 or 6 rings now. I am working on putting the 4 ring as "history" right now.

I'd suggest picking a lane where where the clips are set more widely apart if possible.

They are all the same, I did try to put the target paper a little bit up instead of down, so the clip will be at 1 ring or outside the target. But after a few tries, I find out that unless you put the target paper all the way down (hence the clip is at 3 or 4 rings) it becomes unstable. Sometimes you have to put it as 2 ring on one side of the clip and 4 on the other side, then somehow when the target is up against the back plate, it miraculously straightens itself out.

And moving to one side to avoid shooting a pulley seems odd. Perhaps the range was set up incorrectly.

I would not know. It is the same range, so same set up. At one tournament the official told me to shoot on the right side of the table because of the height of the trolley and the ropes, then at another tournament the official did not care.

I'm struggling to visualize how that would be possible as the pulley should be at least a few inches below the target.

You are correct, but how much below is the question, also if the range is outdoor it is hard to tell at all.

Thank for the reply.

conradin wrote:David is there any rules concerning the SURROUNDING of the target?

I don't know of any rules regarding the trolley mechanisms.

The last part of 6.4.14.1, which refers to indoor ranges, says "The background area behind the targets must be a non-reflecting, light even neutral color."

conradin wrote:Also, this happened to me before, what if you hit the pulley system clamp which is to hold the target paper?

Again, I don't think that's covered in the rules so the first part of 6.8.11 would apply "A Jury must decide all cases that are not provided for in the ISSF Rules. Such decisions must be made within the spirit and intent of ISSF Rules.".

conradin wrote:...also if the range is outdoor it is hard to tell at all.

ISSF rule 6.4.1.6 "10m airgun ranges must be installed indoors."

Gerard wrote:As for shooting the target clip, it seems likely that this would fall under a similar rule as the one where the officials will disqualify a shooter for hitting the metal plate surrounding the target (with electronic targets), on second offense if memory serves.

I don't know of any such ISSF rule. It must be a local range rule.

My apologies David and Conradin. I wonder where that false memory came from? Could have sworn there was a rule regarding hitting the metal surround of electronic targets... but scouring the rulebook I can't find anything like that. Oh well, senility taking root I suppose.

conradin wrote: I'm sure you will probably just give me the rule numbers of the ISSF rule book, but at least I can look it up from the numbers you give me, instead of trying to find it from that huge book myself.

conradin

Download the pdf version here: http://www.issf-sports.org/theissf/rule ... ebook.ashx

And just use the search option on your pdf reader for any keywords you need.
It´s divided into chapters and at the end of each one there is a word index.
Don't let the size of it scare you. Just type and search what you want to look for.

And when you have the time I would strongly recommend that you read the following chapters:
Technical Rules for all Shooting Disciplines, Chapter 6,
Rifle, Chapter 7 and
Pistol, Chapter 8.

It´s not that much and would give you a better inside view at all the stuff we talk about here.

The answer you seeked at the beginning of this post is in the 6th chapter rule 6.4

Hope this helps

David Levene wrote: The last part of 6.4.14.1, which refers to indoor ranges, says "The background area behind the targets must be a non-reflecting, light even neutral color."

I found the passage from the rulebook. It is still not clear what it means by "light neutral color".
I checked the 2009 German Rulebook, and it is the same:
"Der Scheibenhintergrund muss von nicht reflektierender, hell ausgeglichener neutraler Farbe sein."(6.3.17.1)
Same for 2005 (6.3.15.4)and 2001 (6.3.15.4). The wordings are exactly the same.

I'm sure white is "neutral", but what about other colors? This is confusing and they should state the color used, period.

Purely neutral color palettes are made up of nothing but white, grays, and black.

If you relax this rule a little, neutral color schemes can also include browns...

...as well as mixtures of all of the above, including cream and beige.
- See more at: http://www.dreamhomedecorating.com/neut ... X5hkN.dpuf

conradin wrote:

David Levene wrote: The last part of 6.4.14.1, which refers to indoor ranges, says "The background area behind the targets must be a non-reflecting, light even neutral color."

I found the passage from the rulebook. It is still not clear what it means by "light neutral color".
I checked the 2009 German Rulebook, and it is the same:
"Der Scheibenhintergrund muss von nicht reflektierender, hell ausgeglichener neutraler Farbe sein."(6.3.17.1)
Same for 2005 (6.3.15.4)and 2001 (6.3.15.4). The wordings are exactly the same.

I'm sure white is "neutral", but what about other colors? This is confusing and they should state the color used, period.

Concentrate on the sights and trigger release (including follow through) - the rest is immaterial.

Spencer wrote: Concentrate on the sights and trigger release (including follow through) - the rest is immaterial.

Spencer, my problem is I need to know whether I should use my white or my black front sights, sometimes I need to think which one to use, such as the "outdoor"(a shack with multiple partial roofs) range of my organization (white blade with yellow filter glasses), or the totally outdoor range of my own club (either black or white blade, with filters depending on the time of the day). My home garage is very dark at the back, (white blade). The range I frequently go to for tournaments is all white, (black blade), etc.

I want to identify and concentrate on the sights as soon as possible, preferably already on it while the pistol is on its way up; and no later than when it is at its highest point; certainly not the last moment when it passes the bull.

I cannot concentrate on the sights if I cannot even see the front sight. I have a little bit of color blindness but it is not a factor in this situation at all. Filters help but if I do not know the background color I cannot set it up properly on my shooting glasses.

conradin wrote:I need to know whether I should use my white or my black front sights

Your target aim area is always light yellow or white. Your sights should always be black. Period. That's what gives you the best contrast an therefor best sight picture.

Every range that follows ISSF rules is light colored, so again, your sights should be black.

If the range in which you shoot is not light in colour, and you have some say in it, just paint it white. If you don't have a say, just shoot someplace else.

Don't try to reinvent the wheel...

Genuinely hope that this helps

You just re-stated what my problem is.

Shoot somewhere else is not an easy option here. There are exactly two here in the Bay Area that is both totally public and have a 50 yard range.

One of them the officers frequently do not understand FP and consider shooting on the "rifle range" with a pistol is "dangerous". They try their hardest to find any excuse to kick anyone out. For example, ANY movement (lifting up and down) while shooting 50 is an automatic excuse for them to kick you out. They said that you must point straight ahead at the target immediately right after loading and not move AT ALL (up or down) to shoot. Anyone who knows anything about FP or seen enough TV will know that is BS. It depends on who runs the range usually but to drive a long distance just to risk having the wrong range master running the range is kind of pointless. Shooting next to someone with a large caliber semi-automatic rifle who has no clue about safety also does not help my ears. I was almost killed when the guy next to me move his AR-15 by turning it around with the barrel facing me, not knowing if it is loaded or not, only to be wrestled down by the Safety Officer. I thought I was going to meet my maker.

The other public range (my organization's home range) is basically an outdoor range that is an incomplete shack: some place has roofing some has not. I have to make my OWN targets in order to fit the lane. It is not as easy as you might think to make one to fit into that range. I am unable to make the target fit the ISSF requirement for height of the target. In fact, I am the ONLY person who shoot pistol at that distance in that range....to the point that all the officers automatically give me "lane #1". FYI the lighting is horrible, frequently changing, and unstable. You have to use a white blade and then a filter to shoot, and the color of the filter depends on the weather and time of the day.

My home club is semi-public, and does have four 50 yard lanes. But the public must demonstrate that he or she is competent enough to shoot single handed and not miss the target in order to be allowed to use the four international lanes. Ironically, our private range has THREE true 50m lanes. It is quite far from my home.

As for AP, there is perhaps only one private club here that has a semi-permanent indoor 10m range. You are free to shoot AP in a public indoor range, as long as you can handle the guy next to you shooting a shotgun with the target that is only 5 feet in front of him (and miss, and looking into the barrel through the muzzle because he lost count if he still has a slug in the shotgun or not).

I know this is totally off topic at this stage, but it always amazes me that a supposedly a strict gun-control state like California has that many idiots have firearms.

conradin wrote:I'm sure white is "neutral", but what about other colors? This is confusing and they should state the color used, period.

That would only give the people who run all 3 of the ranges you have described something else to ignore.

You could at least try to get you own home range up to ISSF standards, especially in regard to rule section 6.4.14.

The exact colour of the bacground area is irrelevant.

David Levene wrote: You could at least try to get you own home range up to ISSF standards, especially in regard to rule section 6.4.14.

The exact colour of the bacground area is irrelevant.

That is a good idea; my home club is totally outdoors so it is irrelevant; but the home club of my organization I probably can do something about it. I think I can convince them to let me put a board at the back of "lane #1" that has the type of color required by 6.4.14. I think a light primary color, like light grey, light pink, etc. will do. It will also help me so that I can use the black blade, which should be the primary blade that I use, not my white. The folks over there essentially let me do whatever I like for "lane #1" anyway. If only I can convince them to knock off the metal barriers at 35 yards, then I can put my target at the correct height. That is not going to happen.

conradin wrote:

David Levene wrote: You could at least try to get you own home range up to ISSF standards, especially in regard to rule section 6.4.14.

The exact colour of the bacground area is irrelevant.

That is a good idea; my home club is totally outdoors so it is irrelevant; but the home club of my organization I probably can do something about it. I think I can convince them to let me put a board at the back of "lane #1" that has the type of color required by 6.4.14.

Of more importance, but normally harder to get agreement for, it to get the light levels correct. If the general range lighting and the firing point lighting are too dark then you will have a hard job seeing the sights correctly, leading to your worries about the target area colour.