TargetTalk

What is a good beginner rifle to start shooting long range? I asked this question earlier, but worded it differently, and all I got was hate on it. I shoot at 100 yards now, but i would like to step it up. However, all i own are .22's and 2 ww2 rifles. I have been shooting for 2 years now, and I feel i am ready to step up from a .22 and get a .223 or a .308. which would you recommend?
________________________
simple dinner recipes ~ easy recipes for dinner ~ healthy dinner recipes

H'mmm I've been at it over 40 years and still prefer the 22 LR over others. It is not a question of "stepping up" but of what you prefer.

As for 223 vs 308, what do you consider long range? Out to 300 yards, take the 223 it is cheaper to shoot and less punishing. 600 yards might be on the long side for 223 but you can do it. Out at 1000 yards you really want the 308.

'Dude

As 'Dude said - It boils down to what range you want to shoot, but also price. If it's 1000 yards you want to be shooting, you're not only going to need something in at least .308 caliber, but a rifle with a long enough barrel to accurately push the bullet that far. If hand loading is an option, the 7mm bullet heads have a very good ballistic coefficient, which makes it great for longer ranges as it's less susceptible to buffeting by the wind. The 7mm Rem Mag is a accurate long range round, but again, it's not the cheapest round to shoot by a long way.

When you are shooting out to long distance often you see people "build" a rifle
with a barrel/action/stock from a preferred vendor. Nice to do but it's also time and money.

You could make life simple and buy something like a Savage Palma 12 in .308
for the price it's not bad.

These days, I shoot a .308 Palma rifle for all my outdoor prone shooting. It is a good all around round for 300 yards out to 1000 yards. You have a lot of options with bullet weights, but also have to be careful that the bullet weight will work with the twist and length of the barrel you choose.

That being said, I've also seen the .223 shot out to 1000 yards, but it can be a little bit more sensitive to wind changes than the .308.

Although I have focused on the .308 and .223, there are really a lot of options for shooting long range, and numerous disciplines. I've seen various 6MM, 6.5MM, 7MM and .30 caliber rounds, both magnum, and non magnum, used in long range.

I guess what I am saying is that it depends on what you want to do that will drive your decision on what caliber you choose.

As an aside, don't discount shooting your .22. I do a lot of prone shooting with one (50 & 100 yards). It' is economical and fun, as well as good practice.

Personally, I don't shoot as much as I would like. At this point, I shoot 2 smallbore prone matches per year, and 3 to 4 high power (long range prone) matches. I'm now retired, so I may be able to get some more range time.

308win if you want to shoot palma.
If I were shooting long range, I would shoot a .284 Win, or a 7mm RSAUM.
OR just use a 300meter rifle in 6BR.
But long range requires lots of skill in reloading, if you haven't done any reloading, I would suggest you start.
Matt

I concur that it's not a question of "stepping up" but what you prefer to shoot. .22 in many ways is more challenging than big bore, because the relatively long time the bullet stays in the barrel demands perfection of shooting fundamentals. On the other hand, wind combat at long range can be a lot tricker. They are different disciplines that offer challenges unique to each.

A lot of long range shooters are simultaneously smallbore competitors. This accounts for a big portion of my own club, for example. Long range matches are not held very frequently, while smallbore can be shot every weekend, by yourself, to hone your skills.

As far as equipment, a .308 Palma gun is the most versatile. It is legal in any long range match in the US and Commonwealth countries. It's less of an arms race and therefore less expensive than shooting "any rifle" calibers. You have the option of shooting at the international level with a .308, whereas "any rifle" can only be used in American matches. Even though you'll be at a disadvantage ballistically compared to those shooting "any rifle", most matches should have a prize reserved for Palma shooters.

The ideal formula for a .308 Palma gun is as follows:
- Barnard action/trigger
- Eliseo B1 chassis
- Quality 30" barrel, medium Palma contour from the likes of Krieger, Bartlein, Hart, etc.
- Phoenix or Warner rear sight.
- Goliath 30mm front sight.

Any experienced Palma smith will help you figure it out. Talk to Gary Eliseo (http://www.gotxring.com/)

- Tony Chow

2500 yards ? No problem. Go big or go home. :-)

http://www.thorgdg.com/shop/thor-m408-a ... on-system/

The M200 with the .408 Cheytac round has had a lot of problems which is why the military started looking into the Barrett .416 system instead. The machining process of the .416 is more accurate so you get better consistency. Anyway, we digress and I think a .308 with a 30" should do fine!

Actually the Barrett .416 has turned out to be a dog. The real star now is the Cheytac .375 which is what most ELR (extra long range) guys are using now. Needless to say the original Cheytac company went out of business quite a while ago and is still around in name only.

We hold two 200 yd Schuetzen matches for .22 RF a year. I'd consider that long range for a .22.

For center fire I'd call 800, 900, and 1000 yds long range. Ranges in between those two I'd call intermediate ranges. Some of our members go to 1500 yd matches, which are far beyond my abilities. I doubt I could hit a circus tent at that distance.

I prefer the .308 for long range. In my experience, the typical shooter can't hold up to 51 rounds of anything much larger. One of our club members was on the U.S. Palma Team - he shot a .308, of course, he had to. :-)

I prefer .22 rim fire myself. If you're looking for a challenge you might consider the mini Palma target. Same sight picture as the regular Palma - but without as much wind to take into account. Still, the 100 yd mini P is a pretty good challenge for a rim fire shooter, although there might be tougher targets on the bench rest side of things - I know virtually nothing about that discipline.

Regards

TPJones wrote:We hold two 200 yd Schuetzen matches for .22 RF a year. I'd consider that long range for a .22.

For center fire I'd call 800, 900, and 1000 yds long range. Ranges in between those two I'd call intermediate ranges. Some of our members go to 1500 yd matches, which are far beyond my abilities. I doubt I could hit a circus tent at that distance.

I prefer the .308 for long range. In my experience, the typical shooter can't hold up to 51 rounds of anything much larger. One of our club members was on the U.S. Palma Team - he shot a .308, of course, he had to. :-)

I prefer .22 rim fire myself. If you're looking for a challenge you might consider the mini Palma target. Same sight picture as the regular Palma - but without as much wind to take into account. Still, the 100 yd mini P is a pretty good challenge for a rim fire shooter, although there might be tougher targets on the bench rest side of things - I know virtually nothing about that discipline.

Regards

If you want a real challenge you could try shooting the ISSF 50m target, and try the British NSRA 100 yard target. The NSRA 100 yard (they also do a 50 yard if that is all the distance you have) is proportional to the ISSF target. The NSRA ten ring is about the size of the US NRA X ring, with the nine about the size of your bull. The NRA 9 ring is about the size of our 7 ring. So you can see it is quite a challenge. The ISSF 50m and our 50 yard target have a very similar sizing relationship to your 50 yard target.

As to scores possibles (in ten shot strings) do happen but are unusual enough that shooting one is always going to happen in every match. It is very rare to see a possible in a Dewar match shot on our targets. In the ISSF 60 shot prone event then 580 upwards is a pretty good score in match conditions, although the top shooters at World Cup/Championships/Olympic level do score 600's fairly often, of course only at 50m. You do really need to have batch tested ammunition to hit the really good scores on these targets, the ISSF 50m 10 ring is only 10.4 mm in diameter, and now they are scoring them to 10th of a point scores in major championships, shot mostly on the electronic scoring systems which makes the highest possible score for a shot 10.9 and for 60 shots 654. I do not think the world record will ever get to 654 though with the matches being shot outdoors.

Alan

The 1000 yd. mini-Palma X ring is 19 mm, at 100 yards. About the same angular size as the 50 M ISSF. Although the black on the mini-Palma is a few mm larger, it's out at 100 yds and looks a LOT smaller. Increased wind problems and ammunition dispersion make the mini-Palma a bit tougher, IMO.


I do like the the British NSRA 100. Our squad shoots two postal matches against Scotton and Farnham each year. We decided on the mini-Palma since it's a target neither of us had shot very much. Alas, the British gentleman beat us by 4 points last match. Our sole consolation was that we had more x's. Unfortunately I'm the weak link on our squad. There's always next match...

I have no idea how far you are from Yorkshire, but you can probably get a few of the mini-Palma targets from them without having to buy 100/250 if you want to give it a try. I think Ian Lodge is still our contact at their club.

Regards,

I guess in comparison Norfolk and Yorkshire are quite close together really, it is about 150 miles away, but that equates to possibly a four hour plus drive, depending on traffic. The roads between us are mostly still single carriageway, so an average of 40 mph is really good. Finding suitable targets for inter-club postals between the UK and USA will always be difficult, thanks to us both using different targets domestically. Unless it's a case of sticking to ISSF targets. At least we all seem to use ISSF sized targets for domestic Air Rifle shooting, so that makes things a bit simpler.

Alan

I like my 270 for long range but can definately see the 7mm or 308 being just as nice