TargetTalk

Coming up to my first refills for my new Morini. To my knowledge, my nearest refill shop is 20 miles away and they'll refill for £1.00 per bottle but the 40 mile round trip is going to cost me a good tenner.

Which would be the most economical way for the long term:
a) buy a scuba tank and get it filled
b) buy a small compressor

Any help would be appreciated

TommyH

Or buy some sort of hand pump. I really like my Gehmann Fx 4-stage. No need for a pump with a moisture trap s long as you follow rigorously the (very brief!) venting procedure after each filling, before removing the cylinder.

TommyH wrote:Coming up to my first refills for my new Morini. To my knowledge, my nearest refill shop is 20 miles away and they'll refill for £1.00 per bottle but the 40 mile round trip is going to cost me a good tenner.

Which would be the most economical way for the long term:
a) buy a scuba tank and get it filled
b) buy a small compressor

Any help would be appreciated

TommyH

Hey TommyH. Rob from Ninja here. We're a machine shop located in the U.S. and manufacture several products for some of the main PCP airgun manufacturer's. I wanted to let you know about another option you have for filling.

This is something we make for a company called Pyramyd Air. The cylinder holds 90 cubic inches (16.2 cubic feet) and holds 4500psi and it comes with a 3000psi output regulator and a device to transfer the air from the cylinder and regulator, into you air cylinder on your gun.

http://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/Air_Ventu ... Cu_In/4708

The cylinder in this picture only comes with DOT and TC approval, meaning it can only be used in countries that accept those certifications. However, we do have a PI approved bottle but it hasn't been released yet. Hypothetically speaking, you can buy the regulator and fill station portion separately and install on a PI approved cylinder that you can purchase in our country that accepts a 5/8-18 UNF thread on our regulator.

EDIT - another way shooters are using this system is tethering it to an airgun. It gives your gun a large resevoir of air as well as add a regulator to your system to provide a very consistent shot, as long as your gun's optimal pressure is within the range of pressures we're capable of outputting on our regulators. We can make regulators output anywhere from 1100psi on the low end to convert CO2 guns to HPA like the QB78 and QB79's, all the way up to a 3000psi maximum output. These regulators are machined and assembled in the United States.

I'm presuming you're from the UK, but can I suggest putting your location in your profile.

In the UK, where there is no shortage of dive shops, I think most people go for a scuba tank.

David Levene wrote:I'm presuming you're from the UK, but can I suggest putting your location in your profile.

In the UK, where there is no shortage of dive shops, I think most people go for a scuba tank.

David, I updated my profile. Thanks for letting me know to do that. We're based right outside of Chicago, IL but our products are easily sourced in the UK. We have several "paintball" shops that have the ability to order our PCP products in case you guys are interested in anything.

The Scuba tanks are nice but only rated to hold 3000psi or slightly higher and they are very heavy. Not as easily transportable as the smaller carbon fiber tanks. For about the cost of a high end pump, you can get a system that would allow you to do multiple fills

This is something new we just released about 4 months ago after speaking with several gun manufacturer's at Shot Show last January. We've been manufacturing certain parts for companies like AirForce, Crosman, Benjamin, and many others but this year is the first year we've released our own line of PCP airgun products.

Rob, my bad. I should have made it clear that I wass responding to Tommy.

With a 15 litre tank I don't think many ISSF shooters would need to get a refill more than once every 12-18 months.

My own main tank is a 15 litre with a 232 bar DIN valve with a pressure gauge.

Leaving that at home and making sure my 2 Morini cylinders are always full then I've always got at least 3 matches worth of air with me.

In the UK then any competition with more than 3 matches will certainly have air available.

Cheap and simple; like my women.

Buy a used SCUBA tank, the larger the better, preferably from a dive shop. It's even better when it's full when you buy it. They are cheaper than hand or powered pumps. They are also cheap to fill since you only use about half the air in them before refilling.

Around here you can pick one up at a shop for around $100.

David Levene wrote:Rob, my bad. I should have made it clear that I wass responding to Tommy.

With a 15 litre tank I don't think many ISSF shooters would need to get a refill more than once every 12-18 months.

My own main tank is a 15 litre with a 232 bar DIN valve with a pressure gauge.

Leaving that at home and making sure my 2 Morini cylinders are always full then I've always got at least 3 matches worth of air with me.

In the UK then any competition with more than 3 matches will certainly have air available.

No worries, David. I agree with what you said. A 15 litre cylinder will hold quite a bit of air before someone would need to get it refilled. What we offer is a much smaller carbon fiber cylinder with a regulator (not just a valve) for a much lower cost. The larger SCBA style cylinders tend to run upwards of $700+ when you include the cylinder + valve + hoses. Ours would be $300 and include all of the above and still give someone multiple fills at home. Its less volume but as an example, a Marauder can expect about 8-9 fills filling from about 1800psi and topping back off at 3000psi.

Plus with our system, you could even hook it up to a non-regulated airgun and add in a regulator to the overall setup while also providing regulated fills that will prevent you from overfilling. You will no longer have to rely on a gauge to give you accurate readings to prevent overfills. The regulator on our cylinder will give your non-regulated airgun a very consistent shot.

Guys, please do not get the wrong impression. I'm not looking to advertise or sell direct to you guys. I just want you guys to know about a new way to fill from a new company in your industry. I hope noone considers this spam.

I'll throw this in, since no one mentioned it.

The air has to be ABSOLUTELY dry. If you decide to go the pump or compressor route, make sure that there is a device for drying the air completely. Any residual moisture in the air will condense as you use the cylinder and the resultant corrosion may result in a catastrophic loss of structural integrity, i.e., it will explode. Which could be exciting in a YouTube video, not so much at home.

I went with a scuba tank. I bought it new locally and it came with a couple of free refills, which are cheap enough even when they are not free. Shop around and see what is on offer near you.

Roger

RandomShotz wrote:I'll throw this in, since no one mentioned it.

The air has to be ABSOLUTELY dry. If you decide to go the pump or compressor route, make sure that there is a device for drying the air completely. Any residual moisture in the air will condense as you use the cylinder and the resultant corrosion may result in a catastrophic loss of structural integrity, i.e., it will explode. Which could be exciting in a YouTube video, not so much at home.

I went with a scuba tank. I bought it new locally and it came with a couple of free refills, which are cheap enough even when they are not free. Shop around and see what is on offer near you.

Roger

Hi Roger. We understand that moisture-rich air fills or compressors that aren't properly maintained as far as doing maintenance on filters and such could cause issues with what we call "dirty" or "moisture rich" air fills. As long as the place you are filling your Scuba or SCBA bottles at maintain their compressor properly, you should not have an issue.

Sorry, that last post was by me. I thought I was still logged in when I went to post.

Rob@NinjaAir wrote:The larger SCBA style cylinders tend to run upwards of $700+ when you include the cylinder + valve + hoses. Ours would be $300 and include all of the above and still give someone multiple fills at home. Its less volume but as an example, a Marauder can expect about 8-9 fills filling from about 1800psi and topping back off at 3000psi.

If that's true then you guys in the US are getting ripped off.

Here in the UK it's easy to buy a new 15 litre tank with a DIN valve for the Sterling equivalent of $300-$320

For the vast majority of ISSF style airguns you don't need hoses, the gun's adaptor just screws straight in.

David Levene wrote:

Rob@NinjaAir wrote:The larger SCBA style cylinders tend to run upwards of $700+ when you include the cylinder + valve + hoses. Ours would be $300 and include all of the above and still give someone multiple fills at home. Its less volume but as an example, a Marauder can expect about 8-9 fills filling from about 1800psi and topping back off at 3000psi.

If that's true then you guys in the US are getting ripped off.

Here in the UK it's easy to buy a new 15 litre tank with a DIN valve for the Sterling equivalent of $300-$320

For the vast majority of ISSF style airguns you don't need hoses, the gun's adaptor just screws straight in.

The guys in the US are paying much higher prices from a majority of the other air guys since most are just outsourcing manufacturing overseas. Most of the guys in the U.S. pay an outside company in Asia to make it, pay for the shipping to get it here, add on their margin, and then resell it. With our company, we make our own products so we're able to offer it for a much lower cost.

With the ISSF style airguns, are you guys using a female quick disconnect coupler or a fill probe with something like a 1/8" male bspp thread on the end of the air cylinder and then connecting directly to the fill device? All of the other ways i've seen to fill usually include a hose. The nice thing about our company is that since we manufacture our own products, we can modify them direct at the factory to include or not include a hose, per a customers specification.

I have to admit, olympic style shooting is something new for me and i'm not very familiar with hose youre filling those guns. If its anything like the other guns out there that use fill probes or female quick disconnect couplers, you would have no problem using our "regulated" fill system to fill them up.

Thank you guys very much for offering your input. I haven't dealt with these types of airguns or the European market so this is new ground for me and I definitely appreciate you guys helping me out with the questions.

Almost all the ISSF guns come with an adapter that is specific to that brand and screw onto the tank, which is removed from the gun to fill. The other end of every brand of gun I am aware of is threaded to screw directly into a DIN fitting on european scuba tanks. US shooters typically have a yoke adapter that mounts onto a US style scuba tank, or purchased a DIN style tank valve for their scuba tank.

Some guns come with a 300 Bar DIN adapter (when the tank is rated at that pressure, but most have the 200 Bar DIN adapter.

Thanks David for pointing out my profile over-sight, that's now updated.

Many thanks everyone for the suggestions as to refilling my PCP tubes, I now have a multitude of ideas to choose from.

Thanks

TommyH

TommyH wrote:Many thanks everyone for the suggestions as to refilling my PCP tubes, I now have a multitude of ideas to choose from.

If you do go for a Scuba tank then I would advise getting one with a 232bar DIN valve, and preferably one with a gauge.

Your dive shop won't fill it to 300bar but 232 bar on a 15 or 18 litre tank will last a loooong time. The advantage is that the standard filling adaptors from all of the top line pistol manufacturers will screw in without needing an adaptor (which some need if you have a 300bar valve).

If you do go for a Scuba tank then I would advise getting one with a 232bar DIN valve, and preferably one with a gauge.

Thanks David, you've just helped a puzzled soul

TommyH

David Levene wrote:

Rob@NinjaAir wrote:The larger SCBA style cylinders tend to run upwards of $700+ when you include the cylinder + valve + hoses. Ours would be $300 and include all of the above and still give someone multiple fills at home. Its less volume but as an example, a Marauder can expect about 8-9 fills filling from about 1800psi and topping back off at 3000psi.

If that's true then you guys in the US are getting ripped off.

Here in the UK it's easy to buy a new 15 litre tank with a DIN valve for the Sterling equivalent of $300-$320

For the vast majority of ISSF style airguns you don't need hoses, the gun's adaptor just screws straight in.

I had been using a hand pump (which was actually kind of enjoyable, in a way) and recently got a scuba tank. I bought a brand new tank (80 cu ft, I think; whatever the 'standard', i.e. most common size divers use is). I got the tank (filled) for $170 US at my neighborhood dive shop and then got a DIN valve to screw into the gun's adapter for another $40. I think the air will last me for over a year, maybe two.

On a separate note, my son has one of the Ninja carbon fiber tanks; it's clearly very well made, is very light, and is portable in a way that the full-size scuba tank is not. I don't know that the average ISSF shooter would benefit from this smaller tank, but it would be a great way to carry around a few thousand shots worth of air...

jr wrote: On a separate note, my son has one of the Ninja carbon fiber tanks; it's clearly very well made, is very light, and is portable in a way that the full-size scuba tank is not. I don't know that the average ISSF shooter would benefit from this smaller tank, but it would be a great way to carry around a few thousand shots worth of air...

Great to hear your son uses one of our systems already. Since we manufacture our own regulators, we take great pride in building quality and consistent products. With our 3000psi output regulators, it just provides a much safer way to fill when fill cylinders rated to hold 3000psi (200bar)

If you would like to see how many shots one might expect off of this type of fill station, click this link: http://www.calc.sikes.us/2/index.php

Cubic foot (CF) rating of your air tank (from chart below): 16.2 (that is the cubic foot rating of our 90cubic inch cylinder)
PSI pressure rating of your tank: 4500
Actual PSI in your tank: 4500
CC of your gun's tank: (you will need to input the volume of air in cc that your air cylinder on your gun holds)
Fill the gun to this PSI: 3000 (or fill to the pressure you desire, up to 3000psi max on our regulator)
Fill the gun when it gets down to this PSI: enter the pressure you start refilling at

In the states, the guys are paying upwards of $600-$700 for a carbon fiber cylinder but as you stated, they are not easily transportable. With our system, you can remove the regulator to let TSA or Customs inspect inside the cylinder and fly with it to matches. Hand-tighten the regulator back on and you will be able to use it with no problems as long as there is no gap between the bottom of the regulator and top of the neck of the cylinder. Now you have a portable filling device that weighs less than 5 lbs and will give you multiple fills.

The biggest problem is making sure you have a place that is local where you can get fills up to 4500psi to take advantage of that higher pressure.

When you guys say each gun comes with its own specific adapter, depending on the manufacturer, if the adapters have a male or female 1/8" BSPP or male or female 1/8" NPT thread, you should be able to easily attach a quick disconnect coupler. This would allow you to attach something like a micro bore hose to quickly and easily fill. I'll have to check on these adapters more to see what you guys are working with if its not male or female BSPP or NPT threads.

Thanks for the input guys. This info helps me out a lot.

Rob@NinjaAir wrote:When you guys say each gun comes with its own specific adapter, depending on the manufacturer, if the adapters have a male or female 1/8" BSPP or male or female 1/8" NPT thread, you should be able to easily attach a quick disconnect coupler. This would allow you to attach something like a micro bore hose to quickly and easily fill. I'll have to check on these adapters more to see what you guys are working with if its not male or female BSPP or NPT threads.

I thought we'd made that clear. Most top-end ISSF airguns have adaptors that screw straight into 232bar or 300bar DIN valves. They are therefore much bigger than 1/8" BSP or NPT.

The gun's cylinder just screws directly on to that adaptor. No hose or quick-disconnect is needed in the vast majority of cases.